 Combat Spells and TN modifiers |
  |
 Apr 20 2004, 05:50 AM
Post
#51
|
|||||
|
Free Spirit  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920  |
Why did you need to quote him? Never mind, I see your sig.. I've not disallowed aiming spells, usually the mage has less actions than everyone any way and spending what would amount to a turn aiming was never a big priority. Looking at the rule though, I don't see how it is possible for most combat spells. The spellcaster needs to have a ready ranged weapon, the spell, but readying it means using it as it's instant duration. Non-combat spells mean no ready ranged weapon. The only spell I can think of off the top of my head that is sustained and could be a ranged attack is Firewall. Again, why waste actions aiming it when you could just move it around? Let them use actions and aim to adjust its position (and lower the TN using the outcome from the original sorcery test to represent the greater damage from the concentrating the flames.) |
||||
 |
 
|
||||
|
Apr 20 2004, 09:36 AM
Post
#52
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Not all spellcasting, just elemental manipulations. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 20 2004, 04:26 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I really don't much like the TN modifiers as listed above, but their purpose isn't to be an indication of difficulty of spellslinging at range the way firearm ranges are, it's supposed to represent the way line of sight degrades in air that is probably less than perfectly clear. I'd be inclined to leave it up to GM fiat and throw the table out the window. Aiming, however, is just plain silly.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 06:08 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,262 |
The way i see it cover shouldn't apply until the caster's line of sight becomes in doubt as long as it is a mana speel being cast. A mana spell can pass through a physical object anyway so hiding half behind a desk doesn't do you any good since the caster can still see you cause your half out of the desk. If it was a physical spell, an elemental manipulation or something like a powerbolt where you you have a spell that's not just going to pass right through the barrier than great give 'em cover. But unless that wood in that desk is still alive so the spell isn't just gunna pass through than i don't see how you can hide behind it. You can't claim cover from a gun for hiding half behind a wall of paper so why can you get cover from an equally ineffectual barrier to a spell? But not only that, there's no way to couter act the cover modifier for a spell. If it's a combat spell, you can't aim, there's no magical smart link and your base target number is probly gunna be more than 4, more like (6 /w my gm ne way) so it's like why bother? base will power 4 + 4 for cover + 2 cause it's kinda dark out so i need 10's?!?!?!?! and he needs maybe 6's? I pack up and go home cause all I'm gunna do by casting this spell is risk a head-ache from drain. I can see the visibility modifiers adding target numbers but not cover. Unless the caster LOS comes into question, and especially not with area affect spells. I don't' remeber the exact page but I read a line saying that ALL viable targets in the area of effect of a spell are effected! You don't have a cover modifier to hit a guy half behind a desk when you land a grenade 3 feet in front of him, so why does he get a cover modifier if you center a stunball 3 feet in front of him?
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 06:19 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 309 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,548 |
That's my argument /exactly/. Except you put it lots better :).
|
|
|
|
 Apr 20 2004, 06:56 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Hiding behind a sheet of paper, or under a bed sheet, would then do some actual good against combat spells.
Also, if the 2nd Ed. TN modifiers were just to represent diminished sight through the atmosphere and curvature of earth, why don't the same modifiers pertain to all ranged combat in addition to weapon range modifiers? Are you not looking where you fire? |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:05 PM
Post
#57
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
I'll try to add my reasoning. No guarantee that it's good resoning, of course... 1st bit: Mana and Physical Combat spells act the same. They don't work like a gun, grenade, or elemental manipulation. The spell works by (insert canon blah here) which involves syncronizing your spell with the target. The cover modifer for the guy hiding half-behind the desk has nothing to do with the structure of the desk, and everything to do with the fact that you can't see a good part of him, thus making the "syncronization" harder. Combat spells are not material, and do not 'travel' to the target. They also are not blasts or explosions of any sort. 2nd bit: Note that for area effect combat spells, (mana or physical), valid targets are determined purely by what you can see, not by what you can shoot at or through. The guy behind the paper screen is completely safe from the manaball. He's also safe from the first powerball, although said powerball will probably destroy the paper screen (cause you can see it). The guy on the other side of the 1 foot thick plexiglass wall is completely vulnerable to the manaball and powerball. Note that the opposite is the case for an elemental manipulation, which acts more like a gun or grenade. The upshot is, if you are taking cover behind a desk, hope to god that a manaball is headed your way rather than a fireball - the desk hides you from the mage, which can protect you from the manaball, but the mage can just have a fireball (or grenade) go off on your side of the desk, and fry you even though he can't see you directly. 3rd bit: I would hope the guy behind the desk gets cover from the grenade as long as the desk is between him and the grenade (when it goes off, of course). There are big differences between manipulations and combat spells. For example, if you see a guy around a corner because of one of those rounded security mirrors, you can use a combat spell to waste him around the corner. An elemental manipulation would just blow up/melt/smash the mirror. ------------- As an aside, anybody ever wonder what a powerball looks/sounds/smells like? Do you suppose it sounds like _anything_ except whatever sounds disintigrating pavement/walls/floors/rugs/people make? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:09 PM
Post
#58
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
I'd say so, yes, with one caveat - I'd put a little distance between you and the cover. Remember your aura is big enough to poke through your clothes. Personally if somebody was silly enough to hide under a sheet in combat, I'd just shoot them. (or use an elemental manip if I was out of ammo). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:15 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 3-February 04 Member No.: 6,054 |
or pour alcohol on them and set it on fire.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:22 PM
Post
#60
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Sounds like fun. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:24 PM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Or, jesus, let's just talk to them.
"Look, we're in combat, you just hid under fucking sheet. Consider that you are probably not in the best of tactical positions right now. So you put down your gun and come out and the sheet doesn't have to get hurt." |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:26 PM
Post
#62
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 3-February 04 Member No.: 6,054 |
of course, maybe it's a dicoted 5,000 threadcount magical barrier sheet... then you would be in trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:30 PM
Post
#63
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
I would really look forward to an opportunity to say something like that. Heh. Sigh. I haven't been so lucky yet.
The closest I ever came was a suit who pulled his holdout, rolled all ones, and dropped it. The hyper fast sammie (2nd ed) used the next round to pick up the gun, unload it, hand it back to him, and straighten his tie. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:33 PM
Post
#64
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
I'm going with Cover Modifiers do apply. As the party mage so conveniently pointed out, you can't target a specific part of a target with combat spells. I can't find a page for this reference, but put another way, if you can't target only a part of a person with a spell, then you also cannot target someone who has cover, since you'd be specifically targeting the part of them that you can see. Also, on page 150, Magic Against Vehicles section, where it refers to magicians targeting people inside vehicles it specifically states:
Further down again, it also states:
Yes, this does make TNs higher for mages. On the other hand, you cannot dodge Combat Spells. You cannot add Combat Pool to resist them (only spell pool, *IF* allocated by another mage). You cannot stage Combat Spells down, it's an all or nothing effect. There is no armor, except magical that will reduce the effect of a Combat Spell. The area effect Combat Spells make virtually no noise - a silenced grenade if you will. Wonderful for not drawing attention. A magician is never unarmed. You can strip him/her naked and they still have impressive ranged combat powers. An invisible mage is damn hard to hit. And if you are also a shamanic conjurer with spirits using their confusion power, they can increase the TN for resisting a spell, whereas confusion makes no difference for resisting damage from a mundane weapon. Otherwise an ordinarly mage with a force 6 Stunball is going to take down an average group of people every time (average willpower being 3-4), unless you have a small army of mages allocating spell defense all the time. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 20 2004, 07:55 PM
Post
#65
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
One thing with this: you can only see an aura if you are astrally perceiving. No astral perception, no aura to target the guy hiding under a sheet. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 20 2004, 08:04 PM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Not nessecarily. You can target people through clothes, so why not a sheet?
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 08:19 PM
Post
#67
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
Let me clarify - hiding behind a sheet on a clothesline that's strung like a curtain where you can only see the bottom of their boots.... + 4 TN.
Wrapping a sheet around yourself and curling up in a fetal position on the floor and it's obvious where your head and your butt is.... No Cover modifier. And whether the aura is visible or not makes absolutely no difference to TNs on the PHYSICAL PLANE, otherwise PowerBolt and PowerBall would have no effect on non-living objects, as they have NO aura. Why do people think spells target auras anyway? Can someone point me to a page number or reference for this? Under Combat spells it says nothing about auras. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2004, 08:23 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
You can see his face. ;) Its like a called shot--to the face!!
"Eat that, Dikoted sheet!" (just figured we could extend the Flame to The Great Debate) |
|
|
|
|
Apr 21 2004, 12:41 AM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 309 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,548 |
"and everything to do with the fact that you can't see a good part of him,"
Ah. So I guess, instead of "geek the mage first," it's "turn sideways to the mage, so you're in profile from his viewpoint, thus meaning that he sees a smaller amount of you, and making his casting more difficult. Then geek the mage first. Sideways." Yep. So do those big, wide, funny pants that clowns wear also provide a penalty towards mages? And for those of you who might argue that "smaller aura=smaller target," I guess we're going to have to apply size modifiers, too. And that means if you're really close to your enemy, they'd be bigger, and you'd get a big bonus. So, hey, sustain invisibility...and get close enough that they're DOUBLE normal size, the modifier would be -4, thus leaving you with a TN of 2 to blow away a sec-guard. WOOHOO. :please: |
|
|
|
|
Apr 21 2004, 01:00 AM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
The big difference between Cover and Size/Profile is that Cover provides some, well, cover that can interfer with the full brunt of the attack. If you toss a Flamethrower spell square at Bob's chest while he's standing the middle of a field, it's going to nail him square on. But if Bob is in the city and has half of his body hidden behind a brick wall, your spell is, well, only going to hit half of him at best. The damage of the attack, determined in large part by the number of successes you score, is going to suffer and that's reflected by a highter target number... which directly influences how many successes you're going to nail.
Sure, the rules have a lot of weird inconsistencies where completely different rules (and thus completely different results) can be used to determine what happens... but that's a common theme amongst the rules. Cover is handled in a pretty straightforward fashion regardless of the attack form, and I don't see any real problems with the end results even if Barrier Ratings and everything else should determine some of the outcome. But if you're going to keep overcomplicating everything, you'll just end up with a boring, slow-paced game with so many rules that few people will want to bother playing -- because at that point, you're not even really playing you're just number crunching and nitpicking. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 21 2004, 01:44 AM
Post
#71
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
Do big baggy clown pants provide the clown with cover if you shoot him with a gun? No. Then why would it provide cover if you target him with a spell? Whether you can see an aura has absolutely nothing to do with casting a spell on the physical plane if you're not perceiving astrally. Under combat spells, and individual descriptions of each combat spell there is NOTHING about whether you can see their aura or not, much less targeting their aura. So WTF does their aura have to do with hitting someone with a stunbolt? By this reasoning that you have to see their aura to target it means A: you must be astrally perceiving whenever you cast a combat spell, and B: Powerbolt/powerBall are useless against non living targets as they have no aura. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 21 2004, 02:53 AM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 309 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,548 |
"Do big baggy clown pants provide the clown with cover if you shoot him with a gun? No."
If a /sheet/ would, then so would clown pants. Oh, and to the person above: Okay, so, basically you're saying that there's a difference between aiming at a target that's smaller and aiming at a target that's smaller because some of it is covered. I say bullshit. There's no difference between shooting at an 8.5/11 sheet of paper and an 8.5/5.5 sheet of paper, at the same distance. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 21 2004, 03:16 AM
Post
#73
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Read the last paragraph.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 21 2004, 03:16 AM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
In my example, the sheet hanging from a clothesline that completely blocks your view of everything but the bottoms of the shoes of a character standing behind said sheet would indeed give him cover. However, if the idiot takes the sheet down from the line, and wraps it around himself, then it is no longer cover, but clothing. And no, cover, does not mean barrier, Bullets fly right through it. But magic can only affect what you see. Can't see the target? You can't affect it. Can only see part of the target? Then you have higher target numbers to hit, just like thrown weapons and ranged combat. If you truly believe that wearing baggy clown pants count as cover against either magical or mundane ranged combat, then you must also think a long coat provides cover too. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 21 2004, 07:44 PM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 309 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,548 |
"But if you're going to keep overcomplicating everything, you'll just end up with a boring, slow-paced game with so many rules that few people will want to bother playing -- because at that point, you're not even really playing you're just number crunching and nitpicking."
You mean the one that says things should be simple? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "no modifier" simpler than "any modifier?" Also, clown pants...well, they can be pretty wide. Okay, let's put it this way...if someone makes a harness to hold up a sheet in front of them, do they get a bonus? If that was the case, then wouldn't just about every sec-guard wear one? I mean, seriously, how 'bout this: you're being attacked by a mage, in some house, go hide behind the shower curtain while your friends geek him. He can't hurt you! Yeah. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 8th August 2025 - 01:48 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.