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> Low-Power Character Creation
Epicedion
post Oct 1 2012, 02:58 PM
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Hi folks, I'm building up an SR3 game after a number of years off it, and I'm looking for character creation options. For one-off games I usually just use Priority, but in this case I'm looking to kind of start a group at the pure street level and build them up over time (rather than start in the middle of their careers, like normal SR character generation does), so I need something fairly low-powered.

What I've worked with so far is a modified Priority system -- everyone gets C, D, D, D, E. The problem I have with it is magic is all in the A/B range, so my solution is to bump the C up to an A or a B and leave the rest the same (and then allow someone to trade a D up to a C only for race if they drop another D to an E).

So an Elf Wizard might look like:
A- Magic
C- Race
D- Attributes
E- Resources, Skills

This isn't perfect, and I can't really just turn the players loose on it without supervision or handing out pre-gens. Attributes and skills seem to work okay here, as "room for improvement" is really the theme of things. I'm a little iffy on Magic and Race, but I can deal with Resources (also limiting Availability to, say, 4 to start).

The reason I'm doing this is partly just for fun, and partly to cut down on the samey-ness encouraged of certain builds (ie, the Decker always having the same deck to start with the same programs at the same levels). Also to make getting those initial big boosts of gear (wired reflexes, etc) very important. Too often I see characters get complacent with their self-improvement, because they've already purchased all the important bits they strictly need, so I'd like to see them scrimp and save to get those bits in the first place rather than just dump them out into the world with them.

Anyone got any ideas?
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The Jopp
post Oct 1 2012, 03:02 PM
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I would advocate the points system for this but make Magic and Cash more expensive.

I would also allow magic, like cash, to be bought in increments.

I would also limit Magic rating at 3 so that there is a longer progression towards high force spells.
Cyberware and gear can be limited by Availability where applicable.
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Epicedion
post Oct 1 2012, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Oct 1 2012, 11:02 AM) *
I would advocate the points system for this but make Magic and Cash more expensive.

I would also allow magic, like cash, to be bought in increments.

I would also limit Magic rating at 3 so that there is a longer progression towards high force spells.
Cyberware and gear can be limited by Availability where applicable.


I don't think that really works for a SR3 game.
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The Jopp
post Oct 1 2012, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 1 2012, 03:44 PM) *
I don't think that really works for a SR3 game.


Why not? There is both a point and a karmagen system
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Epicedion
post Oct 1 2012, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Oct 1 2012, 11:46 AM) *
Why not? There is both a point and a karmagen system


If they came out with those for 3, I don't have whatever supplement they're in and never read it either.
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All4BigGuns
post Oct 1 2012, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 1 2012, 09:58 AM) *
This isn't perfect, and I can't really just turn the players loose on it without supervision or handing out pre-gens. Attributes and skills seem to work okay here, as "room for improvement" is really the theme of things. I'm a little iffy on Magic and Race, but I can deal with Resources (also limiting Availability to, say, 4 to start).

The reason I'm doing this is partly just for fun, and partly to cut down on the samey-ness encouraged of certain builds (ie, the Decker always having the same deck to start with the same programs at the same levels). Also to make getting those initial big boosts of gear (wired reflexes, etc) very important. Too often I see characters get complacent with their self-improvement, because they've already purchased all the important bits they strictly need, so I'd like to see them scrimp and save to get those bits in the first place rather than just dump them out into the world with them.


If you "can't really just turn the players loose on it without supervision", then that is a sure sign that what you're wanting to do is NOT what they're wanting from a game. As such, it is better to get off the high horse and not do it.

The game is for everyone to have fun, not so that the GM can have power trips with ridiculous power reductions.
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Epicedion
post Oct 1 2012, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Oct 1 2012, 01:56 PM) *
If you "can't really just turn the players loose on it without supervision", then that is a sure sign that what you're wanting to do is NOT what they're wanting from a game. As such, it is better to get off the high horse and not do it.

The game is for everyone to have fun, not so that the GM can have power trips with ridiculous power reductions.


See, this doesn't actually address the question and it makes you come off as a jackass. The reason I can't turn players loose on the system I said has problems and I'm trying to replace is because it has problems and I'm trying to replace it.

I'm glad to see the that the Morlocks are still represented in the community.
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nezumi
post Oct 2 2012, 01:16 AM
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I thought the Shadowrun Companion had some rules about low-powered campaigns? Anyway, I don't think you can use priority without some serious reworking. Instead, I'd recommend point-buy, and just chop down the number of points, or better, BecKS.

I really like Jopp's suggestion of limiting magic a bit. I know that, per canon, magic starts at 6, but it's an easy tweak. Instead of, whatsit, 30 points to buy 'magician'? You make it 9 points, and let the magic attribute be bought like all the other attributes. So then you can easily have a mage who has a rating of 3 and just can't cast magical spells. (It also lets your physical adept buy additional powers without paying out the nose for it.)
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phoenix182
post Oct 2 2012, 04:46 AM
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I tend to prefer lower-power campaigns so this topic is of specific interest to me. I highly recommend using Building Points (from the Shadowrun Companion) to accomplish this, even though I otherwise LOVE the priority assignment method (it's so iconic to SR, and great fun).

They recommend 120BP as a starting character, but I find that makes pretty powerful runners. I've tried various levels of reduction but find that anything under 60 is too low to do anything at all. I think 80 is pretty fair under most circumstances.

Look at it this way:

An average human would have 6 stats at 3 each, for a total cost of 36BP

An average high school graduate may have some low level athletics (1-2pts), possibly some low level unarmed (1-2pts), may have 1-2 points in rifle or shotgun if they're hunters or target shooters, may have a point or two in stealth, has at least 1 or 2 points in computer, may have biotech 1 (from health and cpr/first-aid), may be a 1pt B/R tinkerer, a couple points in street etiquette, a point in leadership, negotiation (and maybe intimidation if they're a bully), and can probably drive a car or bike. That all adds up to a minimum of 15-20 skill points, requiring the same number of BP.

That means that a human teenager with no money or magic still needs close to 60BPs. If you're using edges/flaws the characters can usually grab an extra few points on top of that, which is enough to let them be metahuman without much trouble. That still means no magic and no money however.

If you add 20-30BP (80-90 total) you can let someone be either more skilled (like an older normal person), magical, or extremely wealthy. That wealth or magic defaults to a pretty high power level however, which may make such characters more powerful than you're wanting.

Like others have mentioned it may be more about controlling the creation than simply using an existing framework. If you want some magic, and some tech/money, but not overpowering characters I'd recommend capping spending in those areas to 10-15 points. You have to modify the magic section a bit though. As others mentioned you could say every 5BP spent earns your character a point of Magic, with 10BP allowing the equivalent of an adept or aspected (with about 15-20 spell points), and 15 allowing a full mage (with around 10-15 spell points).

-----

Just as an aside, I'm currently teaching the game to a bunch of new players (almost NO roleplaying game experience among them) who didn't want to be overwhelmed by the rules, choices, and gameplay. I decided to give them all 80BP and told them to make themselves (their ACTUAL selves) using the existing rules. In other words, no metahumans, magic, or money (since US dollars would be useless in SR), and mostly average stats and skill levels.

I then wrote an overarching campaign framework (which includes numerous published runs as well) where the group (and others) were pulled through time and deposited as-is in the SR world. They're going to do a number of VERY basic sessions, each introducing just a couple aspects of the game. After a few sessions, they're all going to fall terribly ill (VITAS/VITASII/UGE, because remember they have NO immunities to something which is now mutated and proliferated) at which time I'll give them the balance of BPs (40) and allow them to awaken and/or change, as well as touch up their skills and attributes, edges and flaws, and so on. Their contacts will be designated by their earlier adventures, as will their monetary resources.

The upside is ease, lowered power level, and a realistic transition to an in-game environment. It should be easy to get them to 'play their characters', since it's nothing more than 'what would YOU do if a 10' troll swung a lamppost at you at the behest of some slimy corporate buffoon'? It also allows for a gradual introduction to the game history, background, and flavor, rather than suggesting they each read 20 sourcebooks cover to cover.

The downside is mostly for those that would play heavily cybered/bio'd characters, since doing so in game requires extensive down time. However, that gives time that the characters could all be getting more familiar with their new reality.
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DuckEggBlue Omeg...
post Oct 2 2012, 09:41 AM
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For a priority based, low power game, might I suggest using 'Sum to 10' and then change the total. It's sort of where you were headed.

In Sum to 10, the Priorities have numerical values (A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, E=0) and then you do as the name implies. Let's you have Million Nuyen Mages and your mundane humans don't feel like they're being screwed, but it's still essentially priorities.

For lower power just set the total lower, 7 or 8 maybe. I *THINK* magic users might be kept in check by having to spend big on magic and that means they'll be low on attributes and skills (just to avoid extra rules), but don't quote me on that. Probably lower the max attribute, skill and availability ratings by a point or 2, maybe cap spell force and adept power levels lower aswell if you are really worried about it, and you should be good to go.
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Epicedion
post Oct 2 2012, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Oct 1 2012, 08:16 PM) *
I thought the Shadowrun Companion had some rules about low-powered campaigns? Anyway, I don't think you can use priority without some serious reworking. Instead, I'd recommend point-buy, and just chop down the number of points, or better, BecKS.


I'm rather book-limited, so I don't have point-buy rules handy. I'm trying to pick up some of the books I failed to get the first go-around, since I doubt Shadowrun will ever swing back around to the 2E-3E style (though D&D seems to be doing just that, so you never know). Not sure what BecKS is.

QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)
For lower power just set the total lower, 7 or 8 maybe. I *THINK* magic users might be kept in check by having to spend big on magic and that means they'll be low on attributes and skills (just to avoid extra rules), but don't quote me on that. Probably lower the max attribute, skill and availability ratings by a point or 2, maybe cap spell force and adept power levels lower aswell if you are really worried about it, and you should be good to go.


This might work. I think magic would actually be self-limiting, even with the full spell allotment and Magic 6, since Spellcasting, Willpower, etc, would be lower than your typical starting mage. You might have a Force 6 Lightning Bolt, but using it is gonna be unreliable and will probably fry you (a little).

On the topic of magic, does anyone here house-rule in a way to improve spells rather than rebuy them? That is, if you have Stunball at Force 3, instead of rebuying Stunball at Force 5 you just improve the one you have (let's say by spending the money for the new spell and then paying the Karma difference)? I always found the buy/rebuy mechanic to be a little punitive.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 2 2012, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 2 2012, 06:05 AM) *
On the topic of magic, does anyone here house-rule in a way to improve spells rather than rebuy them? That is, if you have Stunball at Force 3, instead of rebuying Stunball at Force 5 you just improve the one you have (let's say by spending the money for the new spell and then paying the Karma difference)? I always found the buy/rebuy mechanic to be a little punitive.


If I remember Correctly, in 3rd Edition, you can go on an Astral Quest to reduce the cost of the new spell. Reduced costs are equal to the "power" of the Quest. so, if you were looking to get a Force 6 Spell, you could go on a Rated 5 Astral Quest to reduce the cost to 1 point of Karma. (Force 6 - Quest Power 5 = 1 Karma). Could be remembering wrong, however.
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nezumi
post Oct 2 2012, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 2 2012, 08:05 AM) *
I'm rather book-limited, so I don't have point-buy rules handy. I'm trying to pick up some of the books I failed to get the first go-around, since I doubt Shadowrun will ever swing back around to the 2E-3E style (though D&D seems to be doing just that, so you never know). Not sure what BecKS is.


I've been running a campaign on just the main book and the Companion for a few years. You'll note, I still use the Companion. I consider it pretty indispensable.

BecKS is a fan-made system which lets you buy your character's abilities with karma. So I guess he starts with all zeros, gets a lump of karma, and buys up normally. My understanding is it's implemented with a computer program or excel sheet, to make the math easier. I've never used it, but it's supposed to be great for evening out the min-maxing.
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DuckEggBlue Omeg...
post Oct 2 2012, 01:47 PM
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Our group just always played it that you paid the difference between the current and new level karma cost of the spell. I'd actually forgotten it was a house rule.

BeCKS was in The Shadowrun Supplemental #15. It has tables for basic starting values so you don't need to calculate everything yourself, so a spreadsheet isn't strictly necessary. I think it was also programmed into NSRCG, which you can find in this thread.
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Tanegar
post Oct 2 2012, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega @ Oct 2 2012, 04:41 AM) *
In Sum to 10, the Priorities have numerical values (A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, E=0) and then you do as the name implies. Let's you have Million Nuyen Mages and your mundane humans don't feel like they're being screwed, but it's still essentially priorities.

That's fairly clever. Is it a book rule or house rule?
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nezumi
post Oct 2 2012, 08:40 PM
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Sum-to-ten was in SR2 (I believe in the Companion). It may have been in SR1 as well.
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sk8bcn
post Oct 3 2012, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega @ Oct 2 2012, 03:47 PM) *
Our group just always played it that you paid the difference between the current and new level karma cost of the spell. I'd actually forgotten it was a house rule.

BeCKS was in The Shadowrun Supplemental #15. It has tables for basic starting values so you don't need to calculate everything yourself, so a spreadsheet isn't strictly necessary. I think it was also programmed into NSRCG, which you can find in this thread.



There a BeCKS v.2.

And I find it beeing the best system as it really kills off min-maxing.

You start with 425 Karma Point and buy what you want.

Wanna play low level? Start with less Karma. Easily done with BeCKS.
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Stahlseele
post Oct 3 2012, 01:20 PM
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Go and get yourself a copy of the NSRCG3.
That one has a normal, low and high power character creation option.
It has the Priorities, Points, Karma and BECKS sum to 10 Creations.
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