Mechwarrior: Online, Calling all Mechwarriors! (I know theres at least a few of us here Options

[CanRay]

A pair of LRM hits and I'm down now unless I have a convenient mountain to hide behind.

I gotta get a AMS somehow. Gotta figure out how to get the weight for it.

[_Pax._]

Add to that the new Artemis FCS, which operates nothing like the TT rules version. It more or less makes the LRMs work like they did in early closed beta - They fly way up and come down on the target from straight above. Buildings and hills no longer block them and AMS doesn't get the chance to take out as many missiles. They also are much tighter grouped - I've seen mechs instantly get decapitated by LRMs since they have a very good change of hitting some mech design's heads from straight above. No matter what you are running right now, even if your entire team is equipped with AMS, you can die in seconds if a couple of missile boats lock on to you.

Funny, that. BEcause the whole time I was complaining that LRMS, and only LRMs, got their damage doubled per-shot compared to TT rules? The responses were always "use cover, n00b" and "use AMS, n00b". And now, you describe an LRM add-on that negates cover and trivialises AMS. Uh-huh, yeah. LRMs win, again. ::sigh::

[CanRay]

Well, Artillery is "King of the Battlefield".

[Stahlseele]

Not in CBT . .
But certainly in MW. Always has been to an extent too . .
In MWLL it's pretty bad as well, but there are several counters to LRM Spam.

[bannockburn]

Hm. Speed still works against Artemis LRMs, as does AMS. It's only natural that a lot of people try it out, but it only really shines in dedicated groups with additional Tag lasers. We'll see how it works, especially with the high rearming costs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Well, Artillery is "King of the Battlefield".

LRMs are not artillery.

Arrow IV, Sniper/Thumper/Long-Tom. Those are artillery systems ... all of them capable of being fired from multiple "map-boards" away. Two weeks ago, not a single map in MWO was larger than ONE map-board.

Hm. Speed still works against Artemis LRMs, [...]

That's great, for Lights and some Mediums. Now, what about the Heavies and Assaults? When your top speed is 45kph or 55kph, "speed" is one thing you just don't have.

[X-Kalibur]

LRMs are not artillery.

Arrow IV, Sniper/Thumper/Long-Tom. Those are artillery systems ... all of them capable of being fired from multiple "map-boards" away. Two weeks ago, not a single map in MWO was larger than ONE map-board.

LRMs can be fired indirectly provided you have someone as a spotter in Battletech. How is that not artillery?

[bannockburn]

That's great, for Lights and some Mediums. Now, what about the Heavies and Assaults? When your top speed is 45kph or 55kph, "speed" is one thing you just don't have.

Well, cover is king (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sometimes you fall, sometimes you don't. I'm driving my 3rd Atlas atm, and it works out pretty well for me. Don't forget the AMS, though, it's a must have now.
However, I do agree, that Artemis is kind of OP right now. One problem is that LRMs do double damage in comparison to TT, something which no other weapons do. The other is, that the ECM isn't implemented yet. But it's not the end of the world (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Because, usually, they are used as direct fire weapons.
Artillery can't be used as direct fire weaponry usually.
That's the whole distinction in Battletech, basically . . .

They got the Artemis IV FCS wrong too.
Because that specifially ONLY WORKS with direct fire.
And all it does is REDUCE SPREAD of the missles so more hit.

[taeksosin]

AMS is frakking worthless at this point. As is cover, for the most part. Problem being, the LRMs drop from a 90 degree angle straight on your head/CT. As for light mechs losing lag shield, even if that's the case, I don't typically die to people shooting lasers/ballistics. ALL of my deaths have been from a salvo or two of LRMs. It's not even the artemis thing that's had the impact, it seems like ALL LRMs have the new flight path. Very annoying.

Oh well, I'll still run around in my Jenner w/the TAG and just wait for the other side's scouts to come to my group before we shred them. Then I'll go play TAG with the LRM boats. Cannot wait for next patch, heh.

[KarmaInferno]

Just last night I got screamed at in general chat by a guy I was shooting at. He was all like, "OMG what the hell are you shooting me with you're a douchebag."

I was trying out a triple AC/2 build in a Cicada. Chain-fired, they pretty much act like a sniper machinegun, and I have gotten very good at estimating how much I need to lead on a moving target. blamblamblamblamblam.

What I did not know is that getting hit with it makes your cockpit continuously shake so much you can't see a damn thing.

I so want to put a <trollface> logo on the sides of my mech. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



-k

[taeksosin]

Cicada is the next mech I'm saving up for once I purchase my stable of Jenners. I so wants in on ballistic weapons.

[_Pax._]

Well, cover is king (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

From what I've read here, not against anything with Artemis FC, it's not.

Don't forget the AMS, though, it's a must have now.

Before Artemis, I bought the Atlas with two AMS hardpoints, specifically to try and survive against LRMs more oftne. And piled in FOUR tons of ammunition, total.

It still didn't help. *shrug*

One problem is that LRMs do double damage in comparison to TT, something which no other weapons do.

IMO, that's the only real problem. An LRM-20 potentially does twice the damage of an AC-20, and nearly thrice that of a Gauss Rifle, in MWO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

The other is, that the ECM isn't implemented yet. But it's not the end of the world (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

By TT rules, ECM shouldn't do anything to LRMs (except block NARC, TAG, and Artemis FC).

LRMs can be fired indirectly provided you have someone as a spotter in Battletech. How is that not artillery?

Let me try this again.

As of ~2-3 weeks ago (when I last played or even had MWO installed), the maps available were one map-board (four 8.5"x11" map sheets in a 2z2 array) in size. I base this on the range given for LRMs in MWO - they should have a reach of roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of a map-board.

The shortest-ranged Artillery system has a range of four map-boards. The longest one, the Long Tom, has a range of over TWENTY boards.

Yes, that's right. The Long Tom should have about sixty or seventy times as far as an LRM. Since LRMs have a range of 1km ... try to imagine the size of the map required, to give anyone even the slightest chance of being out of range of the guy sporting an LT gun. Just try. On such a map, you could have your entire lance of LIGHT mechs going at a dead run, straight, over flat terrain with no cover ... and still need 5-10 minutes to reach the far corner. In a Heavy or Assault, moving at 1/4 or 1/3 that speed, you'd be walking for half an hour before maybe seeing an enemy.

That's artillery. In TT, atilley units were rarely put on the actual map - they were at some unspecified space, "X boards away", as support units. An on-board unit could call in an artillery strike on a given location - say, 1/4 a grid square on MWO's maps - and then it would take a few turns (10 seconds per) for the round to arrive, filling the entire target area with damage and death.

[bannockburn]

I'm not at all referring to TT rules in regards to ECM. I know the rules, but the game is its own entity. Some concepts don't work, see DHS, if converted from turn based to real time.
ECM has been referred to as a tool to get away from LRMs easier, so I'm guessing it breaks target lock. But as it stands, it is too powerful at the moment, as it seems, which is why it's not implemented yet.
And yes, cover DOES work. You just need to be smart about it. High ridges, hugging the cover and your AMS can do the rest.
One of the problem is the 90° angle (mentioned by Taeksosin) that all LRMs use again now and which makes them vastly better than they should be.
It will be fixed and it will probably be sooner rather than later. For the time being, I stay in tunnels and near cover. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

[...] the game is its own entity. Some concepts don't work, see DHS, if converted from turn based to real time.

Actually, that "game is it's own entity" is 70% of why I sought (and received) a refund on my Elite Founders' Pack. PGI promised they were going to stay as close to TT rules as possible, only changing things when they had to.

And to me, "double" heat sinks should be just that, double. 9/10 of the reason doubling them seems so powerful, is that heat in MWO was and is out of control. Weapon RoFs were jacked up (case in point: AC/2, at what, 0.5 seconds recycle? Compared to TT's 10 seconds for everything ...?)1 - but heat dissipation wasn't. So everyone, PGI included, got used to every 'mech running excessively hot. Especially anything with energy weapons, and double-especially PPCs and ERLLs.

And yes, cover DOES work. You just need to be smart about it. High ridges, hugging the cover and your AMS can do the rest.

As you yourself admit: Artemis FCS makes the missiles come straight down at you. Cover doesn't help, then.

Not to mention - you don't drive a Heavy or an Assault, do you? Even without Artemis involved, a lot of the cover people insist is so common, is often only shoulder height for something like an Atlas or an Awesomer. What's cover for a Light or Medium, often isn't cover for a Heavy or Assault. The very 'mechs who are least able to use "speed", are also least able to use "cover".

And AMS? AMS just doesn't cut it. I've had a twin-AMS (with 4 entire tons of AMS ammo) Atlas, in cover, get LRMed into oblivion in under 40 seconds, from not even scratched paint to cored and dead. And, from only one or two enemies firing those LRMs.

[bannockburn]

Well, good for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
IMO tabletop rules don't work in real time games. Didn't in MW2 and onwards, didn't in MechCommander, etc. pp. If you only want to see SuperNova derivatives, sure, DHS is the way to go. For a more balanced approach, I like to see them twiddle with the numbers.
But that's a matter of personal preference.
I'm still okay with having paid 60$ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As to the issue with Artemis, let me quote myself:

I'm driving my 3rd Atlas atm, and it works out pretty well for me

So yes, I'm talking from at this moment over a 100k Exp in Assault Mechs, about 25k of those made yesterday and today. Don't get me wrong, I've died to concentrated fire, but if I'm, let's say on River City behind a high building, it works fine. Forest Colony? Behind the ship works, as well as the big rock formations. Caustic Valley? I stay the hell away from the crater. There's plenty cover in the outskirts. Break LOS, power down, power up and use the cover to your advantage. I agree with you that AMS doesn't cut it. If you take it alone, in a vacuum. But AMS and speed in a scout? Works. AMS and cover in something bigger? Works. Not always and not perfect, but the game is far from omgwtfrofl broken.
It's not an instakill, it's not a wonderweapon, it's simply (at this moment) a bit imbalanced. The issue is exacerbated by the fact that everyone uses it right now to play with the new toy and that they don't have to pay for the ammo, as 75% are free. This needs to and probably will be fixed soon(-ish).

[Stahlseele]

i still say people should try out MWLL.

[bannockburn]

Tried it. Didn't like it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Not my cup of tea, sorry. It's really well made, though from what I could see.

[Stahlseele]

what, exactly, did you not like about it? O.o
and what, ecactly, do you like about MWO?

[bannockburn]

For one thing, the hoops I had to jump through to get started.
I had to buy Crysis, which I have absolutely no interest in. Granted, it was only 10€, but I was kind of bummed out when I didn't like the mod. Before that I had to make a new gamespy account to actually play.
Another thing, when I actually got into playing it and shot the legs off some scout Mech, I was flamed for my 'dishonorable tactics'. I got the founder's package a few days later and I hugely enjoyed the feeling of the big stomping steps and generally the concepts.
To be fair, I haven't given MWLL a big chance, because it paled in comparison.
I do concede that the developers put a lot of effort into the mod. It's good. It's just not my thing. The concepts of MWO appeal a lot more to me, with the built-in economy (yes, I know, MWLL has one, too, but it's a lot less accessible) and the experience for the different chassis, even if there's still a lot lacking.
I am also very much looking forward to mercenary units and community warfare, as well as battlefield roles.
As I said, just a matter of personal preference, not really saying that MWLL is worse. It's just different (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Ok, so, how much did you pay for your founders package?
and yeah, legging is frowned upon by most people that still play MWLL . . which is to say, about 5 to 50 people or so, sadly <.<

[Fabe]

As you yourself admit: Artemis FCS makes the missiles come straight down at you. Cover doesn't help, then.

Not to mention - you don't drive a Heavy or an Assault, do you? Even without Artemis involved, a lot of the cover people insist is so common, is often only shoulder height for something like an Atlas or an Awesomer. What's cover for a Light or Medium, often isn't cover for a Heavy or Assault. The very 'mechs who are least able to use "speed", are also least able to use "cover".

And AMS? AMS just doesn't cut it. I've had a twin-AMS (with 4 entire tons of AMS ammo) Atlas, in cover, get LRMed into oblivion in under 40 seconds, from not even scratched paint to cored and dead. And, from only one or two enemies firing those LRMs.

Yeah,cover is useless with LRMs dropping down like that. The good news is that is in fact a bug and a hot fix is coming hopefully soon.

[bannockburn]

I've paid 60$ for a founder's Atlas and got 80$ worth of ingame money. Seems a good deal to me, because I also would've paid about 60$ for a non-F2P game in the store. I've bought myself a Yen-Lo-Wang from this ingame money and still have about 16k of 20k left for fun stuff later (like pointless bobbleheads and paint jobs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
I could also use it to exchange left over Mech-XP to general XP and get the modules faster, but I'm really not that interested in fast progression.
The main reason I've decided to pay was getting the Atlas directly at start (back then community and role warfare was still on the table for release, and I wanted to have a command vehicle), the custom paint job and the promise that MWO isn't pay to win.

And I really don't understand this bitching and whining. It's a bit understandable, of course. You don't get to move around much anymore, you don't respawn and you're effectively out of the game. But legging isn't much harder than hitting CT and just killing the guy. But because of the metagame, people tend to armor their legs less and _then_ complain when they disintegrate? That's just weird (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Ah, in MWO you can do the armor down on legs, and there people should suffer for that too, no matter how much they complain . .
MWLL has no mechlab and thus you can't move armor from locations. there, seeing how it takes ages to get back to the base if you don't suicide and you are unlikely to make enough money to buy a new asset that allows you to fight, legging is frowned upon strongly . . because it's basically setting the enemey team back one asset but the player still blocks the slot for the time being.

aside from people like me, who like playing hovercrafts and battle armor . . few and far between and usually more in for the fun than for the kill/efficiency . .

and you paid 60$ for MWO and complain about 10$ for crysis for MWLL . . THAT IS SOMETHING I WILL NEVER EVER UNDERSTAND!

[bannockburn]

Well. I've bought every Mech game so far (for PC, that is). I would've bought MWO as well, if it had been a 'regular' game. But I have zero interest in Crysis, which I had to buy to play MWLL (a free mod) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I didn't complain about the 10€, but I realized that MWLL isn't for me, so that's wasted money. I haven't even started it yet as a regular game and it got deinstalled. I probably won't even touch it ever again, as I'm no single player FPS gamer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Clearer now?