[X] My Assistant

[Sengir]

Yeah, lasers as DOT Weapons are one of the few good ideas they used

Well, it eliminated the LL boats from MW4 and gave us SL boats...

[Stahlseele]

yeah, because they are not using the COF from WOT as they should . .

[Tanegar]

I'm finding I actually make less money with owned 'Mechs than trial 'Mechs. Repair and rearming nearly always costs more than the 20% penalty imposed by trial 'Mechs.

[Stahlseele]

sounds about right

[taeksosin]

What're you reloading? You get 75% of your loadout free from the get go. Since it's a "feature" as claimed by the admins, you can go into mechlab and turn off auto rearm. Save yourself a good hunk of change. Granted, on my Jenners where ammunition isn't really a concern, I don't start earning sub-trial mech rates unless I play poorly or I stick ferro-fibrous armor on the mech. At this point, I'd say the FF isn't worth it.

[Tanegar]

What're you reloading? You get 75% of your loadout free from the get go. Since it's a "feature" as claimed by the admins, you can go into mechlab and turn off auto rearm. Save yourself a good hunk of change. Granted, on my Jenners where ammunition isn't really a concern, I don't start earning sub-trial mech rates unless I play poorly or I stick ferro-fibrous armor on the mech. At this point, I'd say the FF isn't worth it.

Streak SRMs for my Commando and AC/20 rounds for my Hunchback. The Commando also has ferro-fibrous armor.

On another note, I'm loving the AC/20. Boom Boom is death against other mediums (except the Cicada) and heavies. Assaults have the armor to soak up hits, though. Once in a while I even get a light 'Mech whose pilot is dumb enough to stand still so I can put a 20-point shell in his torso. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tanegar]

Hardpoints are still stupid. If you're going to allow on-demand reconfiguration of non-OmniMechs, don't be a half-assed pansy about it. If you want the classic 'Mechs to keep their roles, don't be a half-assed pansy about it. Instead, they chose to be half-assed pansies on both counts.

I really, really wish they'd kept to 3025.

[Stahlseele]

So say we all.

[bannockburn]

No, we don't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Hardpoints are still stupid. If you're going to allow on-demand reconfiguration of non-OmniMechs, don't be a half-assed pansy about it. If you want the classic 'Mechs to keep their roles, don't be a half-assed pansy about it. Instead, they chose to be half-assed pansies on both counts.

I really, really wish they'd kept to 3025.

I will restate my original idea of how Hardpoints should have been dealt with. It would allow some customisation, actually quite a lot of it, but it (in combination with normal TT rules for tonnage and crit slot spacing) would still restrict things so that mostly, people would stay in-role for the chassis they were working from.

[Tanegar]

I will restate my original idea of how Hardpoints should have been dealt with. It would allow some customisation, actually quite a lot of it, but it (in combination with normal TT rules for tonnage and crit slot spacing) would still restrict things so that mostly, people would stay in-role for the chassis they were working from.

I don't like that idea either; it lacks the virtue of simplicity. Changing the weapons loadout on a non-OmniMech is, canonically, an enormously difficult and expensive undertaking, because you're basically rebuilding part or all of the chassis. I propose a "labor cost," in both money and time: every time you add something to your 'Mech, you pay the cost of the item plus 50%, to reflect the cost of having the thing installed, and it takes twelve real-time hours for every critical slot occupied. Sure, you can put an AC/20 in an Awesome, but it'll cost you CB 300,000 on top of the CB 600,000 to buy the cannon; and it'll take five days to complete the work, during which your Awesome is "in the shop" and cannot be used.

In this way, people can have their customization, but it is no longer a casual thing to be done between matches.

[Starmage21]

I don't like that idea either; it lacks the virtue of simplicity. Changing the weapons loadout on a non-OmniMech is, canonically, an enormously difficult and expensive undertaking, because you're basically rebuilding part or all of the chassis. I propose a "labor cost," in both money and time: every time you add something to your 'Mech, you pay the cost of the item plus 50%, to reflect the cost of having the thing installed, and it takes twelve real-time hours for every critical slot occupied. Sure, you can put an AC/20 in an Awesome, but it'll cost you CB 300,000 on top of the CB 600,000 to buy the cannon; and it'll take five days to complete the work, during which your Awesome is "in the shop" and cannot be used.

In this way, people can have their customization, but it is no longer a casual thing to be done between matches.

From a game-play perspective, hardpoints are basically a tool for game-balance and overhead control. Without the hardpoints, you have to design separate places for weapons mounted on every location to be drawn and calculate physics from. With hardpoints, you restrict that necessity somewhat and create less processing overhead.
In terms of game balance, you dont get an atlas with 40 medium lasers that all hit the same location on a mech when fired and core him in a single shot. I HAVE SEEN THIS ON THE GAME TABLE BEFORE.

[almost normal]

No you haven't. The Atlas doesn't have 40 tons of free space for weapons, and can't possibly mount 48 critical slots on it's chassis. (As it will take another 8 tons and 8 crits to house the TarComp to even give you a possibility of all 40 hitting the same location)

[Falconer]

Actually quite doable... rip out the engine and put in a smaller one if need be. Or turn it XL and assuredly the weight is there...
You've got about 20 tons of armor max frame. (19.5 IIRC away from books)
10 tons of frame
19 tons 300 size engine is again (easy engine size to remember... 6/9 50 tonners, 4/6 75 tonners, and 3/5 100 tonners all use the same engine)
3 tons gyro
3 tons cockpit

Sum total: 55 tons, leaving 45 tons for toys. So we could actually stuff 45 medlasers on this monster not a mere 40....
Put 2 extra DHS in the engine... then put an extra 3 ML's in the CT & Head. Still 4 crits left free in the legs. For max in heat dissipation... trade out 2 ML's for 2 more DHS... one in each side torso.. and move 2ML's from torsos to legs. No crits left open (14DHS, 41ML).

Free Crits:
Arms: 2x10 (rip out hands and lower arms)
Legs: 2x2
Side torso: 2x12
CT: 2
head: 1

Even without taking out hand and lower arm actuators... that's 40 crits in the side and arms alone for 40 MedLsers...

That still leaves 5 tons and a few crits.

Yes all those lasers fired at once will melt things... 40x5== 200 point damage volley. Enough to completely melt most light mechs into a puddle of slag. So no you're completely wrong almost normal.

[almost normal]

That's no longer an Atlas. You kind of missed the point there. He also contended that every single laser fired hit the "The Same Location". Barring the other limitations imposed, this necessitates having a TarComp, adding another 8 tons and 8 crits.

[Tanegar]

You're also assuming that all 40 lasers will hit, which in tabletop CBT is a big, big assumption. Moreover, each medium laser generates 3 points of heat. 40 x 3 = 120, which means you get to fire that salvo exactly once... and then your 'Mech explodes.

[Falconer]

But we're NOT talking board game... we're talking computer game. Where all those lasers are pinpoint slaved to your twitch mouse skills. Translation they should practically never miss. And they will all hit the same location at the same time.

Hence the comment above... about how weapon class based hardpoints restrict mech design and keep assorted mech designs to certain constrained roles (such as missile boat... be it short or long... or gausskat where merely swaps its ineffectual PPC's for Gauss rifles (using the 2 ballistic MG points of all things, fills same role, just slightly differently though still constrained to the same type of weapons in roughly the same locations as the original).


Again... people don't realize the TT rules for heat... *sigh*

The TT rules for heat give a max overheat of +30. If you have 28DHS in... you fire alpha you shut down... in the one turn it takes you restart you're at a mere +2 heat... All that extra heat just disappears through the magical shutdown cycle Yes it's a weirdness in the rules. The mech itself has no ammunition... it doesn't blow up, it merely fires an alpha strike every other round slagging a target or severely wounding it each time.

[almost normal]

But we're NOT talking board game... we're talking computer game.

In terms of game balance, you dont get an atlas with 40 medium lasers that all hit the same location on a mech when fired and core him in a single shot. I HAVE SEEN THIS ON THE GAME TABLE BEFORE.

Your last paragraph is also in error. The simplified heat chart leaves off at +30, as after 30 is hit, there are no new penalties. Heat still gets tracked, per the rules.

[Falconer]

No, this was actually addressed by the BT line developer for the prior edition. Unless the total warfare rule set has explicitly changed this. The heat scale only defined and tracked between 0 and 30, never any higher or lower.


But that's all a diversion from the main point of the thread... the video game and all it's problems. If you allow people full customization, you will get discoball mechs like this which load nothing but tons of the most crit/weight/damage effective weapons... and as many as they can. And then they will volley fire them using the magic of computer game where shots don't scatter and pretty much never miss.

With clantech... the weapon of choice is the ERML... with IS tech it's the ML.

[Starmage21]

Falconer has essentially presented my entire argument for me. He must've gone up against the 40ML Atlas before too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

They dont always go to the same location, OR hit all the time, but it will still generally slag a mech in 1 fantastic alpha-strike, leaving the Atlas fine to sit there for a turn or two offline as it cools off, especially if said atlas' player decides to only fire enough lasers to stay heat neutral until they get a viable TN to roll against on 2d6.

Stick one in megamek. The sheer amount of cheese of the mini-sun atlas is kinda fun to play with once or twice, just to see people look at all the rolls on the turn readout (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[_Pax._]

I don't like that idea either; it lacks the virtue of simplicity. Changing the weapons loadout on a non-OmniMech is, canonically, an enormously difficult and expensive undertaking, because you're basically rebuilding part or all of the chassis. I propose a "labor cost," in both money and time: [...]

Note, my way did not address the financial aspect of the modification. Only a limiting factor on what could even be attempted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The C-bills and time you'd need, would be an entirely different matter.

Which is to say: your idea and mine would work together just fine, hand-in-hand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

These mechs are there in canon too, more or less . .
There are Mechs with 12 Clan ER Medium Lasers or something silly like that.
Or 6 Clan ER Large Lasers. Namely the Nova and the Super Nova, if i remember correctly.
Aptly named, because something will usually go supernova, when this is fired.
And this is WHY?
Because the Clans entire MAXIM of Combat is to get in the strongest possible hit first.
Everything else will have to be thought of after that fact . .
You'd think a HUNCHBACK IIC with 2x Clan Ultra AC 20 would be nonsense . .
But in their way of fighting it is a supreme alpha strike that can and will cripple even Assault Mechs.
If it doesn't simply blow them out of existence in one go . . Because Clan-Pilots usually have Shooting 2 and Piloting 1 or something to that effect.
Meaning, yes, they can and will hit double dips on the ultra AC's pretty reliably . . and this way, there is a damage potential of 80 points.
IN A MEDIUM MECH! That is absurdly powerfull. But in the Table-Top rules and the clan way of thinking, it makes perfect sense to do it!
Especially if you use it for stuff like dueling . . which can be done in all kinds of trials, even in an open combat, if you shout, over open frequency, a challenge to an enemy mech/pilot, he HAS to accept it . .

[Tanegar]

Note, my way did not address the financial aspect of the modification. Only a limiting factor on what could even be attempted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The C-bills and time you'd need, would be an entirely different matter.

Which is to say: your idea and mine would work together just fine, hand-in-hand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except that your idea rapes the suspension of disbelief right up the ass with one of those giant horse-cock dildos. Is there some kind of cosmic point-assigner who audits 'Mech garages to make sure they aren't sticking too many points' worth of weaponry on a chassis? At least the idea of hardpoints is merely breathtakingly stupid rather than tearing open a hole in reality big enough to fly the Death Star through.

Maybe I should watch less Zero Punctuation.

[Stahlseele]

Well, under CBT Rules, yes, actually, there IS a universal Instance of Control of Balance . .
It's called BattleValue Version 2 . . which includes at least a Dozend of Variables and assigns them points.
So a Clan Daishi can easily be in the 3500 to 4500 points worth range . .
Now take an Inner Sphere Assault Mech that weights in at 1100 pts and you have 4 mechs for one.
Which gives a tactical because numerical advantage . . but the Daishi will be expected to take out 2, maybe 3 and with a good player all 4 of the enemy mechs.
Because, technically, strictly points speaking, they are on equal footing . .

[Tanegar]

...which neatly brings us around to the real problem: BattleTech isn't balanced at the level of individual 'Mechs because IT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE. CBT is a force-on-force game, and is balanced on that basis.