Unarmed stronger then melee weapons? Options

[Raiden]

so I love the concept of martial arts masters and unarmed users in SR. and It seems that unarmed is all around better then using melee weapons.
reasons for saying this are
1. detectability, someone is not going to just assume you are a complete badass with the punching power of a mitltech grade sniper rifle, (or higher..)
2, base damage, as an adept there are so many ways to boost your unarmed damage, (adding martial arts into it as well) that you can easily do more damage with your fists then with a katana or combat axe.
3. armor bypass. by taking an elemental strike to use with your fists you can easily bypass most armor at -halfAP, or if you want to do stun damage you can COMPLETELY bypass their armor, and do so very quietly, (smoke as an example)
4. you are NEVER without this weapon, short of cutting off your hands, (or perhaps using some very powerful handcuffs) people cannot really take away your hitting power.
the only thing I really see that may give melee weps a slight edge is the reach, but.. -1 die? maybe 2. if I am wrong on this let me know.

it seems to me that other then for aesthetic reasons or the like their is not really a point in using melee weapons. unless of course, your not an adept. then its more comparable.

[All4BigGuns]

On number 4, don't forget that an unarmed attack isn't necessarily just fists. You can kick them too, which means you still have your unarmed attacks if you're literally "disarmed". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Raiden]

ah that is right, though, if your handcuffed behind your back, you would be at a slight, (if ever so slight) negative modifier haha. they basically have to tie you up like a cafe lol.

[Glyph]

I prefer unarmed myself for thematic reasons, but weapons have a lot to appeal: most of them give you a bonus to your base (from Strength) damage, and a lot of them give you a reach bonus and/or an AP modifier as well. You can use weapon foci for more dice to attack with. Adepts who go the weapon route don't need to spend points on killing hands or critical strike, points that can go towards buying a lot of combat sense.

Of course, the main attraction of using weapons is the two weapon style maneuver, which becomes cheesier when combined with the aforementioned combat sense and the Arnis De Mano ability to do damage on a disarm. With a level of counterstrike added to that mix, you can hurt an attacker, then use those successes as a bonus to your dice pool to do an attack of your own.

Generally, someone built around two-weapon style is a viable choice for a weapons adept. If you want to be more well-rounded, then a monofilament whip weapon focus (or even a completely mundane monofilament whip) is a relatively cheap way to be deadly in combat.

[Raiden]

I have always debated with myself, (and others) wether or not the two weapon style should be allowed to count for unarmed it makes sense in most ways, (he tries to swing a sword at you, you step up block the hilt with your left or right arm/wrist then proceed to punch him , or some form thereof inhis face lol) and you can easily get what I mentioned in about 2 PP without dropping geases or adept ways. one of my characters is a troll face in a suit,, that punches down walls. has a 13 base damage with his fists haha :3. took .5 for a +4 critical strike. then another 1 for elemental strike (blast) and killing hands we were using karma gen and allowed (after GM approved back stories) one initiation at start so had slightly more to work with than on average 400bp build but meh.

but I see what your saying with the weapons, makes it easier to make my assassin char with that extra 2PP going into wall run and gliding.

[Glyph]

For unarmed adepts, the ultimate munchkin technique (usually purchased later, because you need essentials such as killing hands and critical strike to start out with) is distance strike. Because you can use it at point blank range. It is essentially saying "Hey, you know all of that melee skill that you've invested so much in? It's useless - all you get against me is your Reaction."

For armed adepts, it is two-weapon style, along with the ability to do damage on a disarm, a level of counterstrike, and lots of combat sense. It is saying "Hey, I get to double my base skill for defending, and lookie here, it's like SR3 combat rules (where the defender can wound the attacker) came back, just for me!"

Pitted against each other, it mainly comes down to who wins initiative.

[All4BigGuns]

I have always debated with myself, (and others) wether or not the two weapon style should be allowed to count for unarmed it makes sense in most ways, (he tries to swing a sword at you, you step up block the hilt with your left or right arm/wrist then proceed to punch him , or some form thereof inhis face lol) and you can easily get what I mentioned in about 2 PP without dropping geases or adept ways. one of my characters is a troll face in a suit,, that punches down walls. has a 13 base damage with his fists haha :3. took .5 for a +4 critical strike. then another 1 for elemental strike (blast) and killing hands we were using karma gen and allowed (after GM approved back stories) one initiation at start so had slightly more to work with than on average 400bp build but meh.

but I see what your saying with the weapons, makes it easier to make my assassin char with that extra 2PP going into wall run and gliding.

I think, by the rules, you'd have to use one of the "unarmed weapons" like shock gloves or hardliner gloves (still not sure where the second one is book-wise) in order to make use of the two weapon stuff. Doesn't quite make sense, but that's the rules.

As to weapons, there is something to be said about the Troll Adept wielding a combat axe. It's gonna hurt like a biotch. (With the unarmed, you can actually hit 12P -3 AP with an Ork rather than a Troll--the Troll would probably be able to hit around 14 or 15).

[Raiden]

the damage on disarm is well. pointless vs an unarmed adept :3 haha

[Raiden]

As to weapons, there is something to be said about the Troll Adept wielding a combat axe. It's gonna hurt like a biotch. (With the unarmed, you can actually hit 12P -3 AP with an Ork rather than a Troll--the Troll would probably be able to hit around 14 or 15).
[/quote]

yeah the troll right know hits only 13 coulda got him to 15 if I wanted to haha but wanted to stick more to the char concept and theme :3. my ork hits for 12, though one gets -allAP and the other gets -half haha.
the -all is the ork with sound, (HE HAS HIS OWN ASS-KICKING MUSIC!! YES!!!!!) lol

[Falconer]

Actually you missed a major point Raiden.

Unarmed with a LOT of investment can do better damage... but by the time you've put all that investment into improving your unarmed the weapon adept could have put those points into other things like combat sense, etc. You need to consider the oppurtunity cost of all that investment and what else it could be invested in.

Weapon based is a lot easier to get more dice with. Reach & weapon focus to be precise. And a +5 or 6 dice advantage is big... why?...

Since melee is based on opposed tests... the guy with more dice has a big advantage even if he does less base damage per strike. Also more net hits stage up damage... and if I'm tossing +5 or 6 extra dice... I can always drop 4 of those dice on a called shot for damage bringing the damage level up.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually you missed a major point Raiden.

Unarmed with a LOT of investment can do better damage... but by the time you've put all that investment into improving your unarmed the weapon adept could have put those points into other things like combat sense, etc. You need to consider the oppurtunity cost of all that investment and what else it could be invested in.

Weapon based is a lot easier to get more dice with. Reach & weapon focus to be precise. And a +5 or 6 dice advantage is big... why?...

Since melee is based on opposed tests... the guy with more dice has a big advantage even if he does less base damage per strike. Also more net hits stage up damage... and if I'm tossing +5 or 6 extra dice... I can always drop 4 of those dice on a called shot for damage bringing the damage level up.

You can get a weapon focus pair of hardliner gloves for unarmed, and if you're a troll you have reach even with your fists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

The main advantage of Unarmed is that people can't take your weapons away.

And if they have, you have more pressing concerns than trying to beat people up.

[Makki]

You can get a weapon focus pair of hardliner gloves for unarmed, and if you're a troll you have reach even with your fists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

this is an old discussion, but my opinion on the matter is:
If you're using hardliner gloves, you're not unarmed, while still using the Unarmed Combat skill to deliver your attacks. For me it is either hardliner weapon focus or critical strike/elemental strike/etc

the advantage of armed combat is, that you can use you power points for other things, while Unarmed eats up almost all magic.

[Falconer]

You can get a weapon focus pair of hardliner gloves for unarmed, and if you're a troll you have reach even with your fists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Makki hit the nail on the head.

Hardliner gloves are a weapon with it's own unique damage code which use the unarmed skill (but are not unarmed attacks). If you use it you use the weapon focus stats... you don't put critical strike and all those other adept powers on top of it.


The only way to get a weapon focus and unarmed is to put yourself at risk and install it as cyber. A weapon focus cyberlimb you pay essence for. Weapon focus bone lacing you pay essence for. Even then it's not perfect because you activate the focus the focus becomes dual natured, and any damage done to the focus automatically goes to you as well. So at that point I hope you have astral perception and a reasonably good astral combat ability. Because anything astral can pwn you when you activate the weapon focus with impunity if you don't.

[Yerameyahu]

unless of course, your not an adept

Pretty important caveat.

[Cabral]

Because anything astral can pwn you when you activate the weapon focus with impunity if you don't.

Why would astral attacks against your weapon focus damage you?

Also, is there a thread for the hardliners focus issues? I would like to make my own decision based on more than a few summaries that keep popping up of why it won't work.

[ZeroPoint]

Why would astral attacks against your weapon focus damage you?

Also, is there a thread for the hardliners focus issues? I would like to make my own decision based on more than a few summaries that keep popping up of why it won't work.

Because its a part of you. If you make your bones/cyberarms into weapon focuses then attacks against them hurt! And being dual natured (as active foci) allows them to be attacked from astral. That is a big dangerous opening.

Regarding hardliners. There probably is a thread, but this is the summary of all the rules issues regarding hardliners in general.

They are not a piece of equipment that gives +1 unarmed damage. Nor does it say (like bone lacing or density does) that it changes your base unarmed damage to (str/2 +1)P. Instead, they are an exotic weapon unto themselves, that happens to use the unarmed skill in combat, with a damage code of (str/2 +1)P. The same way as shock gloves. Thus they are Melee weapons that use the unarmed skill in combat.

Because they are melee weapons they can be used as foci. Because they are weapons, they can be dual wielded (and thus qualifying for two weapon style).

Because they are melee weapons you CANNOT apply martial arts +DV qualities to damage. Because they are weapons, you CANNOT add critical strike/elemental strike/killing hands/distance strike.

[Sparrowhawk]

2, base damage,
3. armor bypass.

In regards to these two, the big advantage to a weapon vs. unarmed is that you're not sinking 2+ Magic points worth of powers into getting fists and feet up to the hitting power of a no-dachi.

Besides, the easiest way to ramp up your damage without sinking the points is to have a friendly mage sustain Elemental Aura on you. And that works for weapons just as well as unarmed. No precious Magic points needed from your adept.

[Dakka Dakka]

Because its a part of you. If you make your bones/cyberarms into weapon focuses then attacks against them hurt! And being dual natured (as active foci) allows them to be attacked from astral. That is a big dangerous opening.

Who said anything about a cyberweapon focus? A sword or axe would work just as well, better even as no cyberweapon has reach and cyberweapond have no more than STR/2+3 AP 0 damage. Bonded and activated foci are dual-natured but do not make the wielder dual-natured. Cyberweapon foci are an edge case. There are no rules whether a) they are part of the wielder or b) make the wielder dual-natured. Heck, there aren't even explicit rules whether cyberweapon foci are allowed at all.

[Yerameyahu]

Who said anything about a cyberweapon focus?

Falconer.

[ZeroPoint]

Who said anything about a cyberweapon focus? A sword or axe would work just as well, better even as no cyberweapon has reach and cyberweapond have no more than STR/2+3 AP 0 damage. Bonded and activated foci are dual-natured but do not make the wielder dual-natured. Cyberweapon foci are an edge case. There are no rules whether a) they are part of the wielder or b) make the wielder dual-natured. Heck, there aren't even explicit rules whether cyberweapon foci are allowed at all.

yes, as Yerameyahu stated, my comment was in answer to Cabral, who was in turn responding to Falconer. Falconer stated that the only way to get a weapon focus to apply to unarmed attacks was to use a cyberarm/bone lacing weapon focus.

[Yerameyahu]

Personally, I wouldn't allow either, because they're not 'weapons' (unlike Hardliner Gloves, per ZeroPoint's argument). Cyberarm/bonelacing really do modify your 'unarmed damage'… but/because they're not weapons. So Dakka Dakka's question about cyber-*weapons* is relevant… but ironically he's the first person to bring up cyber-implant weapons as opposed to a cyberlimb/bonelacing focus.

[ZeroPoint]

Personally, I wouldn't allow either, because they're not 'weapons' (unlike Hardliner Gloves, per ZeroPoint's argument). Cyberarm/bonelacing really do modify your 'unarmed damage'… but/because they're not weapons. So Dakka Dakka's question about cyber-*weapons* is relevant… but ironically he's the first person to bring up cyber-implant weapons as opposed to a cyberlimb/bonelacing focus.

This underlines my own misgivings about allowing cyberarms/bone lacings as weapon foci.

[Cabral]

Because its a part of you. If you make your bones/cyberarms into weapon focuses then attacks against them hurt! And being dual natured (as active foci) allows them to be attacked from astral.

I'm away from my book, but I thought that damaging or destroying the focus, does not damage the enchanted item, but destroying the item destroys the enchantment.

[Stahlseele]

@Zeropoint
Would you allow the natural bones as foci?
virgin awakened metahuman telesma.