Unarmed stronger then melee weapons? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Do you have to take them out of the body to enchant them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

no idea, actually.
you would, on the other hand, have to open up the bones to the air to carve/etch runes into them . .

[Falconer]

As per the FAQ clarification they need to be enchanted before they can be implanted. Once they're part of you they're part of your 'living' body and can no longer be enchanted.


As for the second part... we're dealing with astral so any combat or spells will be of the mana type. Street magic... "Mana spells work against cyber-modified living beings because the cyberware was paid for with Essence and so is considered to be integral to the being's organic system."

Augmentation: p108... "If the implant was targetted with a called shot, ..." meaning it is possible to target implants.
p127 goes further into this.

There's a blurb somewhere in one of the books about damage to installed implants is registered against the character's damage track, but it's been a while and I'm not finding it. Anyone else remember it? Or am I way off in left field.


And I didn't bring them up except as a counterpoint to someone claiming Brass Knuckles (aka hardliner gloves by any other name) aren't a weapon so would grant full benefit of both weapon focus and unarmed adept powers. Which I disagree with since they're a weapon... no different than a club, or a sword... just because you use the same skill doesn't stop that.

That's a wholly different animal from someone buying a set of cyberspurs then having them eat up capacity in their cyberarm or just installed in their own natural arms essence.

The problem is also the rules are quite vague in here and grey. The focus has it's own magical aura... and damage done to it can shut it down. (IIRC they put somewhere that attacking a focus will deactivate it but not destroy it... but details of this are again vague. There's that one spell in the web supplement to Street Magic that attacks focuses to deactivate them.


At the end of the day... with all that I take the preliminary view that damage done to the focus is stun... the cyberware and it's magic is integral to the characters own aura. So character is stunned... unconscious... focus is still in contact iwth his body (since it is his body)... so people continue to overflow stun until they're dead. So implanting a weapon focus is a very very dangerous action with some potential huge payoffs... but very dangerous.

[All4BigGuns]

Brass knuckles I would not allow, no, but a pair of hardened gloves not being allowed? Come on, if that isn't being an asshole rules lawyer GM, I don't know what is...

[Falconer]

All4Big... hardliner gloves ARE brass knuckles. All brass knuckles are is some kind of hard striking surface worn on the face of the knockles... whether it's brass or some new high tech densiplast in a much more socially acceptable and less noticable glove form. It's the same thing. It's a weapon worn on the hand which isn't an unarmed attack though it uses the same skill.


And to me it's about keeping a balance. Unarmed damage can be obscenely higher than weapon based damage. The downside to it is it's not as reliably accurate because it gets less dice (no weapon reach bonus, no weapon focus bonus dice). So it's the old hit like a sledgehammer but not as often or hit more often but do less damage.


The only way by RAW to get both I know is extremely invasive in terms of tech/essence/and vulnerability... making the character essentially a glass hammer.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, on what basis would gloves and knuckles be different?

If we're talking RAW, I'm still pretty dubious that limb/lacing focus is a valid option. It's not 'a weapon'.

[Cabral]

Yeah, on what basis would gloves and knuckles be different?

If we're talking RAW, I'm still pretty dubious that limb/lacing focus is a valid option. It's not 'a weapon'.

Right. Allowing weapon focus bone lacing or non-weapon gloves, but not allowing weapon focus hardliners (for unarmed attacks) is a bit questionable.

[Falconer]

Cabral... I'd allow a weapon focus hardliner glove... just an adept wouldn't be able to use his critical strike and other adept powers to boost the damage since he's using a weapon. Just like I wouldn't allow him to boost the damage of a weapon focus sword with his elemental fist.


Cyberware is paid for with essence and becomes part of him... it literally changes his base unarmed damage. It's not a weapon... enchanting it before installation is also a royal pain!!

[Cabral]

A glove that enhances your punches is not a weapon. It's an unarmed attack, just like bone lacing. The principle is the same. The paid for with essence rule, as far as I remember, only applies to spell tar getting and no other aspect of whether tech assists in magic.

I've not decided whether I would allow hardliner weapon foci, but I do not agree with the arguments I've seen thus far.

[Udoshi]

I've not decided whether I would allow hardliner weapon foci, but I do not agree with the arguments I've seen thus far.

You can foci anything you like. If you can make your gloves into a sustaining foci, you can make them into a weapon foci.

A weapon foci doesn't necessarily have to be a weapon; the effect is seperate from the name.


Also, I could totally have a weapon foci Fork if I really wanted to. After all, it has an entry on a weapons table. An improvised weapons table, but a weapon none the less.
And if you can have a spirit stabbing fork, you can totally have brass knuckles, weighted gloves, pool ques, and other objects of simliar mass/size/shape enchanted the same way.

Hell, there are plenty of reasons to enchant an item that isn't a weapon as a weapon focus - to make use of its specific Astral Travel properties. Even something as simple as a "weapon" foci pencil and paper that a projecting mage can take with them on the astral is worth considering. What if your day job is interviewing spirits and you need something to write with on the metaplanes? Weapon foci can do that.

mechanically, weapon foci hardliners are basically the same as magical gloves of killing hands +1.

[Dolanar]

I call it stacking the deck in your favor, as it is a truly munchkinned out Troll pugilist Adept can outdamage even sniper rifles in terms of damage potential, then add in negating most defensive maneuvers by making it a ranged attack with Distance Strike, & then adding in the extra 7 dice from a Hardliner Force 6 Weapon Focus...you're pushing 20 dice to hit with & 18p+nets for total damage & aside from the Force 6 Focus, thats all at character creation, add a few Karma into the build...& you're pushing a lot more.

[Cabral]

mechanically, weapon foci hardliners are basically the same as magical gloves of killing hands +1.

Well, except that Killing hands is only .5 power points and leads to elemental strike. If you want to munchkin out, sonic elemental strike is where you want to go. I don't consider the dice from the weapon focus rating a large bonus, but it is also an issue of what happens if you allow unenchanted hardliners to combine with adept powers.

[Udoshi]

but it is also an issue of what happens if you allow unenchanted hardliners to combine with adept powers.

About the same thing that happens as an adept with unenchanted cyberware, or a normal person with hardliners.

[Raiden]

as far as I can tell from the book, the killing hands/CS/elemental strike are described as "auras" I COULD understand where you wouldn't allow the critical strike DV bonus to apply with hardliner gloves, but the elemental and martial arts Bonuses I believe should be allowed as with martial arts its more of HOW you punch then anything (also note if they kick or do something other then punching the gloves are poof)

[Dakka Dakka]

as far as I can tell from the book, the killing hands/CS/elemental strike are described as "auras"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

I COULD understand where you wouldn't allow the critical strike DV bonus to apply with hardliner gloves, but the elemental and martial arts Bonuses I believe should be allowed as with martial arts its more of HOW you punch then anything (also note if they kick or do something other then punching the gloves are poof)

There is no one punch or kick. A melee attack in SR is abstract. It could be a series of punches or kicks or any combination of those. Except for the Kick Attack maneuver there is no need to use anything but the fists, and even the maneuver's description does not explicitly require the use of the legs.

Regardless whether the adept power is described as an aura or not, using hardliner gloves (or any other weapon) is nor a nunarmed attack even though it uses the Unarmed Combat skill.

[All4BigGuns]

All4Big... hardliner gloves ARE brass knuckles. All brass knuckles are is some kind of hard striking surface worn on the face of the knockles... whether it's brass or some new high tech densiplast in a much more socially acceptable and less noticable glove form. It's the same thing. It's a weapon worn on the hand which isn't an unarmed attack though it uses the same skill.

This is just another case of someone using the word "balance" to try to give their argument some validity. A +1 to damage and a few dice does not "broken" make, at least not in anything but an MMO.

[Raiden]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
There is no one punch or kick. A melee attack in SR is abstract. It could be a series of punches or kicks or any combination of those. Except for the Kick Attack maneuver there is no need to use anything but the fists, and even the maneuver's description does not explicitly require the use of the legs.

Regardless whether the adept power is described as an aura or not, using hardliner gloves (or any other weapon) is nor a nunarmed attack even though it uses the Unarmed Combat skill.

While active,
the power wreathes the adept’s hands with a visible effect appropriate
to the chosen element.

from street magic on elemental strike. sounds like an aura but it can be called a littl vague

as for the combat I know that, but there is usually a specific body part that you HIT them with, whether you counter their punch to kick them or return a punch matters.

[Dakka Dakka]

While active,
the power wreathes the adept’s hands with a visible effect appropriate
to the chosen element.

from street magic on elemental strike. sounds like an aura but it can be called a littl vague

Yes, Elemental Strike is like that but the other powers you listed aren't. CS is counter strike, right?

as for the combat I know that, but there is usually a specific body part that you HIT them with, whether you counter their punch to kick them or return a punch matters.

Yes, but from the rules you cannot deduce which part it is, and the rules are pretty explicit, hardliner gloves give you a(n armed) melee attack with a damage of (STR/2+1)P AP 0, regardless how you describe the moves. Elemental Strike works similarly.

[Raiden]

no sorry meant for critical strike, but yeah that is true about the gloves. but in theory couldnt you apply a weapon focus to a pair of normal gloves?

[Dakka Dakka]

but in theory couldnt you apply a weapon focus to a pair of normal gloves?

Hmm, I can't actually find a rule saying the item made into a weapon focus must be a weapon in the first place, but foci (including weapon foci) do not have any inherent damage resistance, so anything that is not designed to be used as a weapon may break after a couple of attacks. This could get expensive quickly. Additionally weapon foci deal damage equal to the weapon they are based on in astral combat. If the item is not a weapon, it should not deal any damage or at least a base damage of 0P AP0.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I threw a kombatmage with a Force 1 Weapon Focus katana at my group a few weeks ago. He kept using -4 called shots for +4 DV in astral combat with the group's magician, and kept missing spectacularly, thanks to some hilarious dice rolls (and a few Edge uses on my player's part.)

Then he decided to stop fucking around and throw a Force 10 Manabolt at my player's magician. That hurt like hell. Cue the Force 5 Spirit of Air clotheslining and astral engulfing him, delivering an astral TKO in one shot.

[Stahlseele]

Ok, and now the Munchkin-Approach:
Get a cyber-fore-arm with a detacheable hand.
Use the capacity of the Fore-Arm for a Nanite-Breeder.
Have 2 detachable hands. use one, have the other enchanted.
Plug in the enchanted one when needed. Problem?

[Cabral]

While active,
the power wreathes the adept’s hands with a visible effect appropriate
to the chosen element.

There is no one punch or kick. A melee attack in SR is abstract. It could be a series of punches or kicks or any combination of those. Except for the Kick Attack maneuver there is no need to use anything but the fists, and even the maneuver's description does not explicitly require the use of the legs.

Regardless whether the adept power is described as an aura or not, using hardliner gloves (or any other weapon) is nor a nunarmed attack even though it uses the Unarmed Combat skill.

The system is abstract, but localized enhancements (elemental strike, hardliner gloves, Kick MA maneuver) provide generalized bonuses.

Due to the abstracted nature, you could even argue that you can use hardliner gloves or elemental strike with a kick- the bonus/effects represent the effect on swirling melee, the kicks, punches, and elbow strikes average out to a +1 damage code or the elemental effect. The main drawback to a localized enhancement is when you are restrained; you can't punch with your hands and you lose the bonus.

This is not D&D. There is no glossary of keywords. These matters are left to common sense and logic. We don't need special wording to determine whether Magic Fang or Magic Weapon can be used to provide a bonus to my fist. I don't want Catalyst to turn Shadowrun into that kind of game, in part because I think they would do a poor job of it.

Hardliners reinforce your punch. Your attack is still a punch. A punch is an unarmed attack.

[Dakka Dakka]

Hardliners reinforce your punch. Your attack is still a punch. A punch is an unarmed attack.

No, hardliner gloves are weapons, more specifically exotic melee weapons that use the Unarmed Combat skill. An attack with a weapon cannot be an unarmed attack. That is plain English.

@Stahlseele: I see no rule forbidding this.

[Yerameyahu]

Udoshi, no one's saying you can't make a weapon focus out of anything. ('A weapon focus', btw.) When I said a limb/lacing focus isn't a weapon, I was pretty unclear. I meant that you're either unarmed or you're not; unarmed attacks with your limbs can't be using a weapon focus. Yes, the rule are quite gross at that conjunction.

When you use a weapon, you're not unarmed anymore, and you can't use all those fancy unarmed Adept powers. You're using a weapon with the Unarmed skill. Same as shock gloves, brass knuckles, Hardliners, anything.

So the question is really just 'do we want to declare that you can use a weapon focus unarmed… for the specific, unlikely case of limb/lacing foci?'. :/ If so, you kinda have to then allow the Hardliners and everything else, and no one will ever use melee again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

--
Hardliners do not enhance your punch. Bone lacing does. Hardliners replace it with a weapon damage code, same as a sword.