Weapon brands - You WANT the ARES Alpha...why?, Similar Models Rule Options

[The Jopp]

Seriously though.

Shouldn't there be a 'brand name' on weapons from different manufacturers?

What makes the ARES guns special, how does it differ from Colt?
So I'm thinking using Similar Models rules for guns...After playing Borderlands 2...well, can you blame me.

Damage: As per the rules [Would be a bit unbalanced otherwise]
Concealability: +1/-1
Range: +/- 20%
Recoil: +/- 1
AP: +/- 1
Ammunition:
-[C] +/- 25%
-[M] +/- 25%
-[CY] +/- 2
-[B] +/- 1
Mode: +SS to SA
Mode: +SA to BF
Mode: +BF to FA
Mode: -SA to SS
Mode: -BF to SA
Mode: -FA to BF
Accessory: -Removing One
Accessory: +Adding One
Accessory: +/- Replacing one
Restricted Ammunition: - Weapon can only fire one type of ammunition

So, we take another brand of the Ingram Smartgun X - The Ares Dumbfire.

The Ares Dumbfire is designed for Full Auto mode and replaces the Smartgun link with a Laser Sight and improved clip capacity but has a lighter caliber in order to squeeze in the ammunition without suffering concealment issues (AP+1).

The Ares Desert Fox competitor The Ranger Arms Coyote features a longer barrel but suffers from a heavier recoil instead.

[DWC]

Since the firearms rules are already so totally arbitrary, there's really no need for this level of complexity. Just pick a name, assign the base damage code for the weapon class, and make the rest whatever you want, for whatever cost you choose.

[Snow_Fox]

Right it's going over the top to overly complicate it. A big part of it is personal taste. I've owned a Browning Hi-power 9mm and it was a wonderful gun but I never really liked it. I have a Barretta 9mm and it's just fine. It's a matter of taste.

I think the stylings like that should be kept for real differences in weapons, like the S&W airweight line which sacrifices accuracy for concealability.

Now if you want a flaw in a weapon with a cheaper value then you work that out. The Barretta hold out is a great example. The Bobcat is a .25 with a great reputation but not much hitting power. I mean a .25 isn't much. So they came out with the Tomcat, a .32 (some have said .38 I won't split hairs for the example) using the same frame and mechanism, they just bored out the barrell to make it accept the larger round. The problem is that the thinned barrels have a reputation for cracking. So the bobcat is a great gun with a great rep, BUT it's bigger sister the Tomcat, has a rep for hitting harder but suffering catastrophic failures.

Likewise the Taurus brand guns look like a Barretta on Steroids. Same look but done to a larger scale. Now some people love them to death, no pun intended, but the larger size was done initially to compensate for poorer quality metals. I don't think that is the case any more -Gee I miss Raygun- but they kept the size because it was their signature.

[ShadowDragon8685]

It would be extra-complicated for not a lot of benefit... But some people like that complication.

What I would do is compile a Big list of Guns, sort them by manufacturer, and decide on what traits they typically have in common.

Then to get a similar model, remove the extant gun's common feature, add the other manufacturer's common feature, and you're good to go.




But I expect this will be complicated by the fact that guns in Shadowrun are, and always have been, arbitrary.

[Kyrel]

Well, if nothing else it might make for an interesting online project. It's arguably overly complex, but it could bring something extra to the setting IMO.

[ravensmuse]

Since the firearms rules are already so totally arbitrary, there's really no need for this level of complexity. Just pick a name, assign the base damage code for the weapon class, and make the rest whatever you want, for whatever cost you choose.

What this guy said.

Look - with the exception of firing modes and whether or not they have AP, all guns of the same class have the same damage code. So why do we have page upon page of gun porn? Boring. Arsenal's the same way: lots of guns, with the drones and cars lumped in under one class with "rename if necessary" written in there.

Cut some pagecount by just assigning classes and port in the customization rules from Arsenal, IMO.

[KarmaInferno]

It would be nifty to introduce weapon qualities. Like some being manufacturer based, like perhaps Ares weapons get extra recoil comp but less of something else, or a "junk" quality that reduces the damage and reliability but also reduces the price.



-k

[Bull]

What this guy said.

Look - with the exception of firing modes and whether or not they have AP, all guns of the same class have the same damage code. So why do we have page upon page of gun porn? Boring. Arsenal's the same way: lots of guns, with the drones and cars lumped in under one class with "rename if necessary" written in there.

Cut some pagecount by just assigning classes and port in the customization rules from Arsenal, IMO.

I've made this same argument. And yet, the two Gun Porn PDFs (Gun Haven and Gun Haven II) are two of the best selling pdfs that CGL has released.

Me, I'd just list 3 versions of each category of gun (to add a little variety), list a bunch of different models for each gun, and call it a day. But obviously, I'm in the minority. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Tanegar]

The OP's idea is conceptually identical to a rule in Eclipse Phase, found in the sidebar "Brand Name Weapons and Combined Arms" on p. 336.

The weapons listed in this book define generic samples of each weapon. Gamemasters are encouraged to offer brand name versions of each weapon, each with its particular idiosyncrasies and small variations. For example, a Direct Action A30 SMG might lack a semi-automatic setting but come equipped with an extra ammo capacity of 35. Likewise, a Medusan Arms Longinus sniper rifle may inflict an extra +2 damage but have an AP of only -12.

[Cabral]

I prefer the differences to be more fluff... I like the placement of the safety on the Ares pistols; the grips on the browning tend to be a little uncomfortable for people with small hands; etc... Or, if it's going to be mechanical, something like the Contrail: The berreta's efficient use of space gives it one more modification slot; the steyer Aug modular system has two less; etc...

[ravensmuse]

I've made this same argument. And yet, the two Gun Porn PDFs (Gun Haven and Gun Haven II) are two of the best selling pdfs that CGL has released.

Me, I'd just list 3 versions of each category of gun (to add a little variety), list a bunch of different models for each gun, and call it a day. But obviously, I'm in the minority. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

I'd make several pithy comments about certain sectors of the Shadowrun fandom, but Can would probably smack me upside the head (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tanegar]

I quite like technology porn. Make of that what you will.

[The Jopp]

I prefer the differences to be more fluff... I like the placement of the safety on the Ares pistols; the grips on the browning tend to be a little uncomfortable for people with small hands; etc... Or, if it's going to be mechanical, something like the Contrail: The berreta's efficient use of space gives it one more modification slot; the steyer Aug modular system has two less; etc...

Hmm...

So perhaps a few weapon qualities that modify the price a bit that you cant really modify into the design?
-Limited Ammunition [One Ammo Type Only] -25%
-Extra Accessory Slot [Side, works as Top] +10%
-Moddable [Additional Mod Slot] +50%
-Un-Moddable [Reduced Mod Slot] -25%
-Well-Balanced [Off-Hand Negative Dice Mod+1] +15%
-Inaccurate [Extreme Range Dice -1D6] -25%
-Accurate [Long & Extreme Range +1D6] +50%
-Roomsweeper [Short & Medium +1D6 / Long & Extreme -2D6] +25%
-Complex Reloading [Reloading Takes A Complex Action] -50%
-Signature Gun [Rounds used from this gun is more easily traceable] -10%
-Miniaturized [Concealability +4 / Accessory & Mods +50% Cost] +25%

[Abstruse]

I've always treated pretty much every "branded" piece of equipment in Shadowrun the same way vehicles were treated in...one of the Rigger Black Books, I can't remember which edition. They'd state between 3 to 5 different models from competing companies which used the same stats. So if you don't like the name "Eurocar Westwind 2000", you could get a GM Firebolt or BMW 700s or whatever. Just reskin the weapon and use the same game statistics.

However, if you go through and create a fan-made PDF of 500+ different guns from each manufacturer, I'm sure as hell going to take a look (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

I think it would be more like publishing a truly "generic" set of stats for weapons in each category, then making a huge list of modifications to the base weapon, with price adjustments for that modifier, to come up with the actual base weapon that you'd get if you walked into Planet Mercenary and asked for the gun; and which manufacturers can offer a gun with those options - as well as a short list of standard mods that come from the manufacturer, no matter what you're getting from them; IE, an Ares gun will always be cheaper than an otherwise identical gun from another manufacturer, barring the other manufacturer's unique traits, without any loss of quality or negative drawbacks to go with it, whereas an otherwise-identical weapon from, say, a street gunsmith who's mass-producing for general consumption (as opposed to doing detailed work for special clients,) will be much, much cheaper than even the Ares weapon - but you get what you pay for.

[snowRaven]

The next 'Gun H(e)aven' should really have a 'Similar models' list for the main guns in the books, with 2-4 alternate brands and same stats. Just like with vehicles...

[ShadowDragon8685]

The next 'Gun H(e)aven' should really have a 'Similar models' list for the main guns in the books, with 2-4 alternate brands and same stats. Just like with vehicles...

There's nothing stopping you from saying "I don't want the Ares Predator, I want an Onotari Shredder. Oh, the shredder? 350 nuyen, heavy pistol, semiautomatic with a 15-round magazine and a built-in smartlink."

[The Jopp]

There's nothing stopping you from saying "I don't want the Ares Predator, I want an Onotari Shredder. Oh, the shredder? 350 nuyen, heavy pistol, semiautomatic with a 15-round magazine and a built-in smartlink."

Of course, but unlike the similar models rule there is no difference between the two apart from brand name.

Similar models rule switches one attribute with another. And no matter how much I'd like to give my Ingram Predator a +1 damage but -1 Clip size it wouldn't be a fair change due to 14 magazine and 6 damage being a bit excessive for a 'similar' model.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Of course, but unlike the similar models rule there is no difference between the two apart from brand name.

Similar models rule switches one attribute with another. And no matter how much I'd like to give my Ingram Predator a +1 damage but -1 Clip size it wouldn't be a fair change due to 14 magazine and 6 damage being a bit excessive for a 'similar' model.

I'd say that magazine sizes would have to go in, say, 20 or 25% increments to be fair.

An 11 or 12 round magazine might be less excessive, no?