The tales of Marvin the Munchkin, Stories of the Minmaxer who couldn't. Options

[FuelDrop]

When I was walking to the shops earlier a thought popped into my head: What if someone where to try and squeeze every possible point out of an incompetent quality, such as by taking 'uncouth' and then takes cyberpsychosis (-2 on all social skills, go insane for a short time on a glitch), and reality impaired (-1 on social checks in the real world). after all, if he's unable to make social skill checks at all then an additional -3 isn't going to make a difference... and it's hard to glitch when you're not rolling at all! and since he can't use the skills anyway he may as well have a charisma of 1...
of course, Marvin doesn't care that his character is sociopathically unable to relate to people, as he's too busy using the points to be even more effective at killing people!

Then I thought: What if Marvin were so blinded by the points he could save that the possibility that his fundamental premise has a hole in it a mile wide... Specifically, Incompetent (Perception), Oblivious, dump intuition, Night blindness, reduced sense for everything other than sight and hearing... He's getting a lot of points for sacrificing a single skill, but has failed to factor in that the skill in question is actually quite important.
Of course, being a munchkin he then goes a cyber-adept and takes astral sight, then tries to argue that he can use assensing instead of perception on all his checks!

Can anyone else think of some amusing stats or skills Marvin might dump without thinking because they're 'Useless'?

Oh, and apologies to anyone out there actually called Marvin.

[Lantzer]

Dumped: Strength. Munchies know that strength is 'useless'.
Incompetent: Stealth - "I'll just wear ruthenium!"
Dumped: Logic. Not 'useful' in combat or hacking at all.

I think your idea is funny.

[Glyph]

"I take the Combat Monster, Vindictive, Bad Reputation, and Wanted flaws. Ha ha! The first two are how I play anyways, and I usually get the second two within the first five minutes of play! Free points, baby!"

[Jaid]

your first example would go all the way bad really quickly. and probably not in the way the you're thinking, either.

the combination of inability to make social skill checks without having the actual skill, and then not only not having the skill but also having it so low that even if you could default on it you would get 0... shockingly enough does not work out very well in a game where basic capabilities such as, say... being able to lie, being able to tell when someone is lying, being able to attempt to resist intimidation, and being able to not immediately stand out as not belonging somewhere are critical to the success of your lifestyle.

so, for example... when a ganger pretends he has a gun in his pocket (which is actually his finger) and threatens your theoretical munchkin with it... martin will collapse into the fetal position and beg the ganger not to kill him, because he can't tell the ganger is lying and he can't resist the intimidation attempt. in the event that marvin gives said ganger any information, it will be accurate, because martin can't lie. in the event that the ganger offers martin a deal where he gives everything he owns in order to not be killed, martin cannot attempt to negotiate a better deal (of course, if martin hadn't royally screwed his character up, he wouldn't even have to make a deal in the first place, because he wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for the pathetic bluff the ganger used).

as another example, when the guards ask "what's in the back of the track", and it's full of cyberware he ripped out of their coworkers, he will either tell them that, or he can't say anything at all (which will lead to the guards arresting or shooting him and searching the truck most likely, depending on just how secure the location is).

[Midas]

@Jaid
I think the point of this thread is more by way of a thought experiment, and in some ways is exactly about how the munchkin thinks he is getting away with all those lovely BP, only to find that it all falls apart (pretty much in the way you suggested for the social munchkin).

One slight nitpick, the Con skill is not the ability to lie per se, but the ability to lie convincingly. If the cops stop Marvyn driving that truck full of corpses or whatever, Marvyn can say "I'm just the driver, I don't know nuffink.", but the cops will readily know he is lying because of the way he is avoiding eye contact and rocking back and forth uneasily on his feet. The end result would be the same, though ...

[tsuyoshikentsu]

A character who takes all--ALL--of the Poor Self Control options he can, then gets the 'ware that gives a -2 to the threshold of all composure tests and dumps WIL and/or CHA. Because, you know, threshold modifiers don't exist.

[Jaid]

@Jaid
I think the point of this thread is more by way of a thought experiment, and in some ways is exactly about how the munchkin thinks he is getting away with all those lovely BP, only to find that it all falls apart (pretty much in the way you suggested for the social munchkin).

One slight nitpick, the Con skill is not the ability to lie per se, but the ability to lie convincingly. If the cops stop Marvyn driving that truck full of corpses or whatever, Marvyn can say "I'm just the driver, I don't know nuffink.", but the cops will readily know he is lying because of the way he is avoiding eye contact and rocking back and forth uneasily on his feet. The end result would be the same, though ...

err... no. rolling well on a con test represents the ability to lie convincingly. rolling poorly on a con tests represents the ability to lie unconvincingly. not being able to even try to make the attempt, period... well, that represents a complete inability to attempt the act. this person has the skill rating of unaware.

they are not even permitted to roll. period. it's not that they get 0 successes. it's that they can't even make the attempt. they cannot even try to do this thing.

at least someone with just no skill in it could try. they would be terrible at it, and anyone even remotely competent at detecting lies will find them out in a second. but they could make the attempt. a person with the uncouth quality can't even do that. their skill level is described as "A complete absence of knowledge or practice".

i'm really not convinced the "unaware in an entire category" negative qualities in the main book were really very well thought out, to be honest. they only really make sense for things that are so completely alien in mind-set that they probably aren't even terrestrial.

other examples include the fact that infirm people cannot jump, climb, or run. at all. they cannot swim or dive, they cannot balance, they cannot hide things. they also cannot perceive things or disguise things. unless they spend skill points in those areas.

uneducated characters are unable to know about history or geography (including their own local history and geography), any sort of job skill knowledge (such as how to build the kinds of structures they live in or where the best places for fishing would be) whatsoever, and cannot make art, mix chemicals, apply first aid, or make a fake of anything without spending skill points in those areas.

the one closest to reasonable is probably uneducated, though that isn't saying much. it's still completely ludicrous. they all need better explanations of how they work, because right now... the way i would have guessed that they are supposed to work and the way they actually do work is wildly different.

[Makki]

A character who takes all--ALL--of the Poor Self Control options he can, then gets the 'ware that gives a -2 to the threshold of all composure tests and dumps WIL and/or CHA. Because, you know, threshold modifiers don't exist.

a threshold zero is not reached in case you (critical) glitch. With that little dice, this will happen.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Are you sure about that? I can't find anything in the rules to support what you're saying.

[Midas]

Jaid,

Games mechanics-wise, you are correct that someone with the Uncouth quality cannot default on a social skill test. This means that hapless Marvyn will not get a roll when the cops start asking him questions about the corpses in the back of the truck (and given the glitch mechanics of the game, he is probably grateful that he can't).

But I still maintain that this "unaware" level in Con only means that he hasn't the faintest idea how to sell a lie (all that eye-contact and not shuffling on your feet stuff), not that he is some Jin Carey "Liar!" guy who cannot do anything but compulsively tell the truth. Do you see the distinction?

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[FriendoftheDork]

err... no. rolling well on a con test represents the ability to lie convincingly. rolling poorly on a con tests represents the ability to lie unconvincingly. not being able to even try to make the attempt, period... well, that represents a complete inability to attempt the act. this person has the skill rating of unaware.

they are not even permitted to roll. period. it's not that they get 0 successes. it's that they can't even make the attempt. they cannot even try to do this thing.

at least someone with just no skill in it could try. they would be terrible at it, and anyone even remotely competent at detecting lies will find them out in a second. but they could make the attempt. a person with the uncouth quality can't even do that. their skill level is described as "A complete absence of knowledge or practice".

i'm really not convinced the "unaware in an entire category" negative qualities in the main book were really very well thought out, to be honest. they only really make sense for things that are so completely alien in mind-set that they probably aren't even terrestrial.

other examples include the fact that infirm people cannot jump, climb, or run. at all. they cannot swim or dive, they cannot balance, they cannot hide things. they also cannot perceive things or disguise things. unless they spend skill points in those areas.

uneducated characters are unable to know about history or geography (including their own local history and geography), any sort of job skill knowledge (such as how to build the kinds of structures they live in or where the best places for fishing would be) whatsoever, and cannot make art, mix chemicals, apply first aid, or make a fake of anything without spending skill points in those areas.

the one closest to reasonable is probably uneducated, though that isn't saying much. it's still completely ludicrous. they all need better explanations of how they work, because right now... the way i would have guessed that they are supposed to work and the way they actually do work is wildly different.

Not being able to roll != not being able to try something. It just means you automatically fail.

Example: A normal average joe with Reaction 2 and no pilot skills drives his car like he does every day to work. Usually GridGuide does the work, but he loses connection, and has to drive himself. Since this is an untrained skill, he can drive with no problem, but has to default to a single die if he actually has to do anything that requires a roll (such as not being driven off the road by Go-gangers). He also didn't sleep last night, so the GM imposes a -1 penalty to all actions (replace with whatever really). Since he now has 0 dice, he can still attempt to drive around, but when the gangers hit he doesen't stand a chance at keeping on the road.

No test, no dice, no problem.

[The Jopp]

Good lord, unless the GM is okay with it the game (or character) would be derailed rather quickly.

I have a CHA 1 troll ex ganger with a social skill of 3 in gang etiquette. He's the highly visible pink elephant in the room without even TRYING.

Try to fit in at any kind of finer social meeting squeezed into a suit with the following:
About 2,5 meters TALL...
About 2 meters WIDE...
Weights about 270-300 Kilograms...
Looks that not even a mother would love...
A smile that is simply a showing of huge TEETH...
His knowledge of social skills involves not punching people that walks into his 'turf' or groping 'hot rich chicks' or playing with his guns...

And that's NOT counting any kind of official negative qualities...

One does not NEED more negative qualities to make a character the GM can just punish by letting him exist.

[binarywraith]

Good lord, unless the GM is okay with it the game (or character) would be derailed rather quickly.

I have a CHA 1 troll ex ganger with a social skill of 3 in gang etiquette. He's the highly visible pink elephant in the room without even TRYING.

Try to fit in at any kind of finer social meeting squeezed into a suit with the following:
About 2,5 meters TALL...
About 2 meters WIDE...
Weights about 270-300 Kilograms...
Looks that not even a mother would love...
A smile that is simply a showing of huge TEETH...
His knowledge of social skills involves not punching people that walks into his 'turf' or groping 'hot rich chicks' or playing with his guns...

And that's NOT counting any kind of official negative qualities...

One does not NEED more negative qualities to make a character the GM can just punish by letting him exist.

It never ceases to amaze me how many shadowrun players don't realize that the chromed out go-ganger isn't going to be able to blend in. At all. Anywhere.

[The Jopp]

It never ceases to amaze me how many shadowrun players don't realize that the chromed out go-ganger isn't going to be able to blend in. At all. Anywhere.

Yup, and i'm talking about a non-cybered adept that is simply LARGE and UGLY...nothing visibly dangerous apart from ugly mug and large meaty hands. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It's kind of scary of DIFFICULT it is to make a flexible team that blends in everywhere.

Ok, so you have chrome...do you have any charisma? Nope? ok. Any social skills? Street of 3, right...Aaand an obvious red glowing cybereyes with cables that protrude from your hand...riight...

Lonestar takes one look at you and ask for ID and frisk you just to make sure...

[FuelDrop]

It never ceases to amaze me how many shadowrun players don't realize that the chromed out go-ganger isn't going to be able to blend in. At all. Anywhere.

Naturally. They've been playing too much D&D and are used to murder being the best solution (or in some cases the only solution). At least one player I know of tries to get around this by having a stable of minmaxed characters for every occasion.

[The Jopp]

At least one player I know of tries to get around this by having a stable of minmaxed characters for every occasion.

I tend to do that in certain areas by mistake - Character Tunnelvision I call it.

I'm actually GLAD my GM opposed my Troll getting the LARGE positive quality in SR3.

Of the entire team he is the first thing people tends to shoot at ANYWAY so it's not like he has to work to stand out in a crowd.

[Seriously Mike]

Hey guys, do you remember Zod? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Jopp]

Hey guys, do you remember Zod? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Zod?

As in General Zod? The guy who only talked about himself in 3rd person and played by Terrence Stamp?

[Seriously Mike]

Zod?

As in General Zod? The guy who only talked about himself in 3rd person and played by Terrence Stamp?

No, a munchkin's character from a campaign report someone posted over here. Presenting the case to my players, I mentioned that the guy would be out cold the second he loses an initiative roll in combat with pretty much anyone of them, especially the very squishy shaman.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hey guys, do you remember Zod? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

KNEEL before Zod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Iduno]

The lack of social skills seems to be the most common, mostly with people who intend to use the lack of social skills to get more combat. If they are unaware socially, how would the character know what to say to start a fight?

Player: I'm bored. I insult the security people to start a fight.
GM: Ok, you are incompetent in etiquette. Your character is too stupid to know what an insult is and just stands there. Face, continue doing your thing.

With both Incompetent and Uncouth, the book specifically tells you that you are allowed to make them roll. They are unaware of the skill (what a lie is, what intimidation is, what negotiations are, etc.) unless they take the skill, so they can't succeed. But they can still roll a glitch for your entertainment and that of the players who came to play the game, not disrupt it. There is the possibility the person took the quality with the intent of making an interesting character, but this thread isn't about them.

[Halinn]

The lack of social skills seems to be the most common, mostly with people who intend to use the lack of social skills to get more combat. If they are unaware socially, how would the character know what to say to start a fight?

Player: I'm bored. I insult the security people to start a fight.
GM: Ok, you are incompetent in etiquette. Your character is too stupid to know what an insult is and just stands there. Face, continue doing your thing.

With both Incompetent and Uncouth, the book specifically tells you that you are allowed to make them roll. They are unaware of the skill (what a lie is, what intimidation is, what negotiations are, etc.) unless they take the skill, so they can't succeed. But they can still roll a glitch for your entertainment and that of the players who came to play the game, not disrupt it. There is the possibility the person took the quality with the intent of making an interesting character, but this thread isn't about them.

Alternatively, they always start fights. "If you had 0 or more etiquette, you would know that it's bad form to punch Mr. Johnson when meeting him."

[Lionhearted]

Alternatively, they always start fights. "If you had 0 or more etiquette, you would know that it's bad form to punch Mr. Johnson when meeting him."

It's considered quite polite in Krogan society although... wait, wrong universe.

[Xystophoroi]

In the 4e 20th Ed. book the example of an Unaware Social character is a Hermit.

I don't picture a Hermit as unable to understand how to start a fight. Even if they were regressed to the level of a caveman they'd be able to respond to situations they don't understand by hitting something.

Hell, if they tried and insult, the security guard just looked down their nose at them like they're special and carried on talking to the Face I see nothing wrong with the guy pulling a knife/gun/etc. and attacking.

Social Unaware still knows what (meta)human contact is, they just are completely out of the loop, unpracticed and likely very scared to even try. Young children cry and have tantrums and the like frequently because they are unable to communicate effectively in other ways (if you've ever seen studies into developmentally slow children it is often an effective treatment method to work on language and communication skills as a better way to solve problem behavior).

[The Key of E]

It's considered quite polite in Krogan society although... wait, wrong universe.

Well, somebody has tried hacking SR to play in the ME universe:
Shadowrun Mass Effect Wiki