Rifles(Sniping) and Pistols(Flechette), Alternate specialisations Options

[Lilt]

Has anyone considered allowing different specialisations for skills rather than the standard "By weapon type" specialisations?

Examples from the title:
Rifles(Sniping) is used when sniping regardless of which rifle is being used. It is GM's disgression as to exactly what counts as sniping. In-general the character must remain stationary, preferably prone or in a stable firing position, and have performed at-least one aim action to gain the bonus dice. Some GMs may add additional requirements such-as additional actions.

Pistols(Flechette), or rather: specialisation by ammunition type. This specialisation implies extensive experience with particular ammunition types. This covers practicing to overcome disadvantages with the ammunition type (Poor penetration, explosive if mis-handled) and capitolising on the advantages associated with the ammunition type (where to hit a target to cause the greatest trauma with the round type). It also covers experience with the ballistic properties associated with the rounds (Trajectory, Speed, Penetration, ETC).
A character could even specialise in regular ammunition which implies inexperience with any other type of ammunition.

Do such specialisations seem reasonable? Does anyone have/Can anyone think-of other alternate specialisations?

[Arethusa]

Personally, I find specialization by ammo type to be quite silly. Realistically, you'll see specialization for specific weapon classes, and even in extreme cases for specific guns, but not for ammunition types. As for sniping, I think your definition of sniping's a bit strict, but on the right track. Specializations for something like SMGs(CQB) seem potentially sane, though rather hackish, given that SR doesn't handle the whole mess terribly well under canon.

[Shockwave_IIc]

I'm liking the idea. im guess the by ammo type could also be applied to any of the small arms?

[Austere Emancipa...]

Sniping: Standing should count, as long as you don't move. Having spent at least one Take Aim action is a good descriptor too. I'd add that you must not be under fire -- if someone is firing at you or at the area you occupy during this CT or the prior CT, then you are not sniping. Overall, I like it, and have used it before in my games.

Flechette, at least how it's described for non-shotguns in SR canon, could probably count as a specialization. Most other ammunition types, however, shouldn't. Specialization in Explosive Rounds is pretty silly, as is APDS specialization. I do not think it's a good idea to assume people will automatically be aiming for less armored body parts if they've "specialized" in poorly penetrating rounds. According to the newest official stand, like it or not, that's a Called Shot, which instead might serve as a specialization.

[Arethusa]

Ok, I have to disagree about sniping not applying if you're taking fire. If I can grab a suppressed M21, slap a scope on it, fast rope from a Little Bird to a downed Black Hawk, and proceed to snipe hundreds of people trying to rush me, I think it can apply.

Also, I am not even sure just what flechette is supposed to be per SR canon. Do the rounds explode in the barrel? Is this just a misnomer for frangible? I don't get it.

[Lilt]

CQB as a specialisation sounds good. When exactly would the specialisation not apply though? Also: What other specialisations could there be allong the CQB/Sniping progression? IIRC with only 2 specialisations it becomes cheaper to buy both specialisations rather than the basic skill up.

I could see shooting flechette ammunition having significantly different properties than normal ammunition. In-fact it would probably have a larger difference than between particular firearms. You would probably want to shoot people in different locations for maximum effect with gel and capsule rounds than you would with regular ammunition.

[Arethusa]

See, that's the problem. Defining what counts as CQB is something of a GM call, though if you read through my Canon Revision thread (likely now buried on the second page, as Austere was pretty much the only one who responded to it more than twice), you could define it as all combat taking place with 15m. I considered 20 or 25, but I'm not sure if that goes too far. It probably does, and it's a call people who've actually handled guns are far better at making than me.

As for other specializations, who knows. CQB and sniping are pretty solid, though I guess you could theoretically specialize in midrange combat. But with two specializations in a skill, you've paid enough to raise the base skill, which is why it never makes sense to take two specializations. The system could really use some work.

And you would aim for different spots with a gel round, but I'd suggest a non lethal specialization as opposed to a single round specialization. Single types are just too specific to be worth anything, and, really, when you're in the head of combat, you don't calculate where the liver is and then aim there. You shoot. You shoot again. And if he's still standing, you repeat until successful.

[Smiley]

I agree about taking fire not necessarily precluding sniping. Maybe only firing one shot? Definitely not moving, whether that be just standing or laying prone with the trusty loop sling. You can take fire and still place some well-aimed shots. I almost got set ablaze by my squad leader popping a smoke too close to me, but i still did really well on the combat course.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Smiley]

Being UNDER fire and ON fire are both really goddamn stressful situations. They both require focus and a cool head. Do you, Austere Emancipator, have any kind of military experience are are you merely speculating on something you've never been through and really don't know that much about?

[Arethusa]

Whoops. That's what I get for not having finished the book and relying on the movie for that scene. Ahem.

I guess it's fair to not call that sniping. Honestly, it can get very screwy when you want to nail down a solid definition in combat, which is why the game needs two skills: combat and non combat. Combat applies to everything in combat. Non combat applies to everything not combat. That would stop all the debates.

Seriously, I don't like the idea of creating extram mechanics for suppression fire interrupting sniping, etc. I'd much prefer that to be emergent, and if you want to stand up and aim, you go ahead do that, boy. We'll be down here with the cover and the bandages.

[Kagetenshi]

I'd like to state that some of us with no military experience nonetheless have experience with being on fire.

~J

[Smiley]

Yeah, not pleasant, is it?

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Smiley]

What i was responding to was the immediate discounting of my little analogy. For some reason, a certain few of the posters here seem to focus not on the POINT someone is trying to make, but the way in which they try to make it, even when the point is fairly easy to discern. However, to remove ALL doubt...

Under Fire = Stressful
On Fire = Stressful
Under Fire and On Fire = Undesirable Conditions, but not EXCLUSIVE conditions. One CAN operate under them.

[Austere Emancipa...]

I got your point, and I disagreed with it enough to call for the response that I gave. Like I already conceded, a few shots in your general direction might not be enough to break your concentration/aim or force movement. However, when you start using Combat Pool dice in Dodge tests, it becomes pretty obvious that you are no longer being completely still with your eye constantly peering through the scope.

And as for operating under them, of course you can. That was not the point, however. You can operate perfectly well in a battlefield environment, and still be incapable of doing any sniping.

[gknoy]

[Smiley]

Concur. Good point, gknoy.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Arethusa]

I actually quite like the idea of breaking aiming if you're forced to actively dodge.

[mcb]

To be honest I skipped part of this thread so if I repeat something I apologize. When I think of snipers I think of more than simple marksmanship. Any good solder whether they’re sniper trained or not know correct weapon control, good positions, and good trigger control. Snipers excel at shooting at very long distances. A typical solder is taught to engage at ranges were the weapon are still in a point blank trajectory for most of that engagement range. Out to 250 meters you can pretty much point and shoot at man size targets with the standard M-16 or similar rifle and if you have zeroed the weapon at 200 meter then you will still hit the targets any where from zero out to 250 maybe 300.

Snipers excel at shooting at ranges that require the ability to compensate for extreme bullet drop and compensating for wind effects. Shooting at a man size target out to 250 meter is pretty straight forward. As you start moving past 300 meters bullet drop and moderate wind will make you miss a man size target without compensating for it. Snipers excel at compensating for these extreme ranges. Snipers also learn a lot of other skills the normal solder does not but within the rifle skill I think that a sniper’s ability to adapt to extreme range is his real skill that differentiates them from the regular trained solder.

Just my $0.02
mcb

[Smiley]

For what it's worth, the Marine Corps rifle range series does have a 200 and 300 yard line field of fire where you stand, sit, and lay prone, then a 500 yard line where you're prone. The SNIPER snipers go all the way back to 600 yards and further. Hitting a still target at 200 and 300 yards ain't that hard, assuming you remember to change the dope on your iron sights (a mistake i've made once or twice).

Just trying help out with what mcb said earlier.

[Voran]

I don't claim any real knowledge on the subject, but the impression I get through books and browsing the web and such, sniper training is not so much about the gun-training, and more about the stealth/stalking/having the constitution to continuously see your bullets plow through heads.

As such, its not so much a rifle related skill, for SR at least.

[Lilt]

While skill in stalking and sneaking is good, IIRC you really want to be able to control your breathing well and keep your hands steady, which probably would come onder the bracket of the skill itself.

I could see sniping as a separate skill. Possibly one that allows effectively complimentary skill dice, maybe even a centering against penelties style roll, under appropriate circumastances.

Another way it could work would be like marksmanship from SLA Industries the role-play game. That helps sniping by allowing you to take extra aim actions up-to your rank in the skill as-long-as you are in a good firing stance with a rest. I suppose that could be applied as Marksmanship Skill/X extra aims, where X depends on what situation you are in. With firing stance and rest, X=2. With firing stance and no rest, X=3. Without either, X=4.

[Austere Emancipa...]

If "Sniping" is a separate skill, then you're opening the door for all kinds of skill that provide complementary dice to all kinds of actions. "Breaking & Entering" is one. "Tactical Assault" might be another. "Ambushing" perhaps? Etc etc. If you want all those skills in your game, no problem. I'm just getting a similar vibe from this Sniping skill as from those discussions about a separate "Ninja" skill...

Yeah, a sniper's highest skill rating could easily be in something other than Rifle. Stealth is often more important in that line of work. But a Rifle/Sniping specialization still makes sense. Pistol is not a cop's most important skill, but he might still have a Pistol/(Own pistol model) specialization.

And while we're sharing sniper stories: As a rest for a sniper rifle, a small bag of sand is far better than a bipod. Keep along a sturdy sock and fill it with dirt/sand on site for that purpose.