Do Martial Arts DV boni stack with Shock gloves? Options

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Do Martial Arts DV boni stack with Shock gloves? The Description in Arsenal states "+1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks", so it should stack with shock gloves or electroshock orthoskin.

[UmaroVI]

By the rules it does. Some people don't like it.

[Elfenlied]

By the rules it does. Some people don't like it.

The same people usually also dislike Stick'n'Shock. You have to see what your group is comfortable with.

[Lantzer]

A minor quibble:

Some who don't like it don't mind Stick'nShock (or any other source of electrical damage) as a concept.

What people don't like is that your martial arts prowess should have zero ability to change the DV of an attack that isn't dependent on your martial arts prowess. The little prongs dump the same charge into the target for pretty much the same effect no matter where or how hard you poke him with them.

In other words, there's a few of us who think that nothing should increase the DV of a successful electrical attack except using a more powerful electrical attack.

To be honest, I doubt the designers were thinking about electrical attacks when they made the martial arts rules.

[Xenefungus]

Do Martial Arts DV boni stack with Shock gloves?

Of course it shouldn't. I mean, seriously. That's just common sense.

[Tanegar]

Of course it shouldn't. I mean, seriously. That's just common sense.

Alas, common sense is less than common. The issue hasn't come up at my table, but I think if it did, I would rule that the character may choose to use either the shock gloves' DV or his own unarmed DV, but not both for the same attack.

[UmaroVI]

A minor quibble:

Some who don't like it don't mind Stick'nShock (or any other source of electrical damage) as a concept.

What people don't like is that your martial arts prowess should have zero ability to change the DV of an attack that isn't dependent on your martial arts prowess. The little prongs dump the same charge into the target for pretty much the same effect no matter where or how hard you poke him with them.

In other words, there's a few of us who think that nothing should increase the DV of a successful electrical attack except using a more powerful electrical attack.

To be honest, I doubt the designers were thinking about electrical attacks when they made the martial arts rules.

This is inconsistent with the rest of the rules, though. Net hits add to damage. Called shots add to damage. Presumably, when you add +1 DV from a martial art, you are doing the same thing as when you get 1 more net hit and thus add +1 DV, or when you make a called shot to add +1 DV.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Alas, common sense is less than common. The issue hasn't come up at my table, but I think if it did, I would rule that the character may choose to use either the shock gloves' DV or his own unarmed DV, but not both for the same attack.

Which is exactly how it should be.

[Yerameyahu]

Presumably, when you add +1 DV from a martial art, you are doing the same thing as when you get 1 more net hit and thus add +1 DV, or when you make a called shot to add +1 DV.

This doesn't seem like a solid presumption. Even if it were, I don't see Called Shots increasing taser effects anyway. I'm not positive we've ever allowed net hits, either.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The easiest way to bring Shock Effects back in line is to allow no staging of the damage whatsoever. Someone earlier said it. If you are hit with a Tazer, whether it is in the hand or the neck, you still take the same shock. *shrug*

[Tanegar]

The easiest way to bring Shock Effects back in line is to allow no staging of the damage whatsoever. Someone earlier said it. If you are hit with a Tazer, whether it is in the hand or the neck, you still take the same shock. *shrug*

That's quite a good idea.

[Glyph]

Shock gloves are a weapon. They use the unarmed combat skill, but are not an unarmed combat attack. You get the electrical damage - that's it. No martial arts, no adept powers such as critical strike, and no bone lacing/density augmentation.

[Xahn Borealis]

boni

I'm going to be really immature here and contribute essentially nothing to the original topic.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[UmaroVI]

Shock gloves are a weapon. They use the unarmed combat skill, but are not an unarmed combat attack. You get the electrical damage - that's it. No martial arts, no adept powers such as critical strike, and no bone lacing/density augmentation.

They don't work with any of the other ones you mentioned, but they do work with Martial Arts because it checks what skill you are using, not what weapon you are using.

[UmaroVI]

This doesn't seem like a solid presumption. Even if it were, I don't see Called Shots increasing taser effects anyway. I'm not positive we've ever allowed net hits, either.

Called Shots are somewhat magic tea party so you can make a case there, but net hits unquestionably scale electrical weapon damage in the rules. If you want to houserule differently, that's fine, have at it, but if someone asks what the rules are the answer should refer to the rules.

[Halinn]

I'm going to be really immature here and contribute essentially nothing to the original topic.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Did the topic give you any boni?

[Xahn Borealis]

Did the topic give you any boni?

Seeing that word did.

[Cabral]

Shock gloves are a weapon. They use the unarmed combat skill, but are not an unarmed combat attack. You get the electrical damage - that's it. No martial arts, no adept powers such as critical strike, and no bone lacing/density augmentation.

What is an unarmed combat attack if it is not an attack that uses the unarmed combat skill?

The easiest way to bring Shock Effects back in line is to allow no staging of the damage whatsoever. Someone earlier said it. If you are hit with a Tazer, whether it is in the hand or the neck, you still take the same shock. *shrug*

An electrically-charged punch to the heart or possibly a nerve cluster should do more damage than an electrically-charged punch to the hand.

I wouldn't allow it in general because the DV bonuses represent training in effective ways to disable an opponent using the force of a strike. If you can make the argument that your style relies on precision nerve strikes, I might make an exception.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

An electrically-charged punch to the heart or possibly a nerve cluster should do more damage than an electrically-charged punch to the hand.

Why do you have that impression/assumption?

[Udoshi]

Alas, common sense is less than common. The issue hasn't come up at my table, but I think if it did, I would rule that the character may choose to use either the shock gloves' DV or his own unarmed DV, but not both for the same attack.

Unfortunately, the issue becomes a lot clearer when you realize that the bonus to DV is based on the SKILL, not the title of the weapon.
For example, the bonus to blades DV applies to all blade class weapons - there is no weapon called 'blades'.
Its just confusing with unarmed combat, but the bonuses work exactly the same.

Also, martial arts these days teach students to defend against common weapons like knives and clubs(and advanced students to use them) and occasionally firearm disarms, so why wouldn't a comprehensive modern(in sr terms) martial art include taser fists and cybershiv defense as part of the standard curriculum?
Boom, problem solved.

[Glyph]

Not everyone considers the munchkin not getting his DV bonus to be a "problem".

I think UmaroVI may have said it best. It might be allowable by a strict, no-common-sense reading of the RAW, but a lot of GMs would nix it. It's like the Thorns negative quality - strictly by RAW, the discomfort gives you "+1 to alll Physical Tests", but most GMs would say "Uh, no, I know how it's worded, but I'm sure they didn't actually intend for this negative quality to give you a bonus."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not everyone considers the munchkin not getting his DV bonus to be a "problem".

I think UmaroVI may have said it best. It might be allowable by a strict, no-common-sense reading of the RAW, but a lot of GMs would nix it. It's like the Thorns negative quality - strictly by RAW, the discomfort gives you "+1 to alll Physical Tests", but most GMs would say "Uh, no, I know how it's worded, but I'm sure they didn't actually intend for this negative quality to give you a bonus."

See, I see the Negative Aspect of the Thorns NQ to give a +1 THRESHOLD to all Physical Tests. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
So, in combat the defender gets an automatic +1 to defense Hits... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All other Physical Tests are already threshold based, so they become more difficult to accomplish for those who have the Thorns NQ.

[Udoshi]

I think UmaroVI may have said it best. It might be allowable by a strict, no-common-sense reading of the RAW, but a lot of GMs would nix it. It's like the Thorns negative quality - strictly by RAW, the discomfort gives you "+1 to alll Physical Tests", but most GMs would say "Uh, no, I know how it's worded, but I'm sure they didn't actually intend for this negative quality to give you a bonus."

When our group runs into shitty rules like this, we tend to let people have the option of using it as the actually-a-bonus version..... with the caveat that they pay for it like it was a positive quality.
Its a pretty decent solution to a lot of dumb stuff, especially when it comes to surge qualities.

[Stahlseele]

Case of bad copy pasta . .
Under SR3, they gave you a +1 to all physical tests . . a +1 to the TN that is . .

[pbangarth]

1) Martial arts abilities (and hence, bonuses) accrue as much from knowing where to apply force as from being able to apply more force. +1 DV can come from either power or placement.

2) An electrical shock applied through electrodes attached at foot and knee of the same leg will hurt like hell. Attached one in each hand, or one in each ear, the same shock can kill. +1 DV can come from either power or placement.

==> If you know where to hit, you can do more damage. The understanding of physiology that comes from martial arts training should be applicable to shock gloves as well.