Concealment, spirit concealment Options

[Neraph]

Sorry, coming late to the thread.
Somebody asked for a quote to prove, that a spirit power can be sustained from another astral plane.

I can't give that, but page 293 SR4A gives us

" Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained after the power takes hold of its target. Critters
may sustain a number of powers equal to their Magic at one time."

under the heading "Duration", subheading "Sustained".

For me it's basically the same for most scenarios if the spirit materializes and uses Concealment on my team and then vanishes to his home plane or if it materializes, uses Concealment and then flies to another city or continent or hides somewhere.

In both cases the power runs and nobody on site can do something against the spirit sustaining the power, because it doesn't have to be there.

Thank you. I pointed this out last page I think.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thank you. I pointed this out last page I think.

Indeed, but some people interpret that as to mean the the Spirit cannot go home, and must stay on the Physical plane while sustaining, even if he is in another country doing so. "Functionally the Same" does not equal "The Same." *shrug* Tracking the spirit in the Physical Realm is much more doable than tracking the spirit to his home plane of existence (One requires you be an Initiate, after all). And make no mistake, there is a Link between the spirit and those he is Concealing.

[Neraph]

Indeed, but some people interpret that as to mean the the Spirit cannot go home, and must stay on the Physical plane while sustaining, even if he is in another country doing so. "Functionally the Same" does not equal "The Same." *shrug* Tracking the spirit in the Physical Realm is much more doable than tracking the spirit to his home plane of existence (One requires you be an Initiate, after all). And make no mistake, there is a Link between the spirit and those he is Concealing.

Correct, but the rules for sustaining plainly tell that it doesn't matter where you go or what plane of existence you are on - the effect when you created it is sustained and does not change (barring BC), regardless of where the sustainer goes. See my post above about the terminology used, or go to Dictionary.com yourself and check out "sustained" and "maintained" - the two words expressly used to describe the process.

[kzt]

"While astral perception allows an Awakened character to sense
the astral plane"

Assensing is used to interpret the aura you perceive, not to detect it in the first place.

Astral Perception is a power, not a skill.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Correct, but the rules for sustaining plainly tell that it doesn't matter where you go or what plane of existence you are on - the effect when you created it is sustained and does not change (barring BC), regardless of where the sustainer goes. See my post above about the terminology used, or go to Dictionary.com yourself and check out "sustained" and "maintained" - the two words expressly used to describe the process.

I understand what Sustained and Maintained mean, thank you. But Dictionary.com has little impact on the fictional world of Shadowrun.
Besides, I prefer that the Spirit remain Physical. Since it does explicitely mention that the Spirit must share the same state as its target to affect it, it makes more sense. *shrug*

Does this weaken Magic and Spirits? A little, perhaps, but so what.

[Neraph]

Astral Perception is a power, not a skill.

Moot point. Astral Perception allows the use of Assensing and Perception, both of which are skills.

I understand what Sustained and Maintained mean, thank you. But Dictionary.com has little impact on the fictional world of Shadowrun.

It matters when the rules for the fictional world are based on the meanings of actual words.

Besides, I prefer that the Spirit remain Physical. Since it does explicitely mention that the Spirit must share the same state as its target to affect it, it makes more sense. *shrug*

Does this weaken Magic and Spirits? A little, perhaps, but so what.

Emphasis mine. Your preference does not mean it is the way the game works. It does explicitly mention that the spirit must be on the Material plane, and since spirits are Dual Natured the Power affects both astral and physical detection. Since the nature of the words "sustain" and "maintain" denote that you set it up and it works exactly like that until you stop, then it no longer matters what plane the spirit goes to - the effect that was determined when it was Material is the effect that is sustained (hence the word).

You can run it differently at your tables if you want, but know that that is a House-Rule, and don't pretend that's what the RAW states.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Moot point. Astral Perception allows the use of Assensing and Perception, both of which are skills.


It matters when the rules for the fictional world are based on the meanings of actual words.


Emphasis mine. Your preference does not mean it is the way the game works. It does explicitly mention that the spirit must be on the Material plane, and since spirits are Dual Natured the Power affects both astral and physical detection. Since the nature of the words "sustain" and "maintain" denote that you set it up and it works exactly like that until you stop, then it no longer matters what plane the spirit goes to - the effect that was determined when it was Material is the effect that is sustained (hence the word).

You can run it differently at your tables if you want, but know that that is a House-Rule, and don't pretend that's what the RAW states.

But since by your own explanation spirits MUST bed dual natured to affect someone with their powers, they cannot take their Astral form (Cease Materializing) and return to their native planes to Sustain (What you JUST said above). It NEVER says that they can sustain while in their Native Planes in the rules, implications aside, except for the ONE place where it talks about Guard. In fact, the Rules never actually address this at all, which is why there are so many discussions about it.

AS for what I prefer, Yes, I know it is not the Rule. Which is WHY I said that it is what I PREFER (Duh?) and not what the rules said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

But since by your own explanation spirits MUST bed dual natured to affect someone with their powers

Actually, you're reading something in that isn't there.

They have to be materialized to activate the spell/power/ability.

except for the ONE place where it talks about Guard

You mean that one place where it is using Guard as an example? The entire example still holds true even when you replace "Guard" with "Concealment" or any other power, spell, or ability that has a sustained effect.

[almost normal]

Astral Chameleon, Bitches!

[Neraph]

Astral Chameleon, Bitches!

Astra astra astra astra astra astra astral chameleon!

Or something.

[Dreadlord]

Astra astra astra astra astra astra astral chameleon!

Or something.

Red gold and green auras?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, you're reading something in that isn't there.

They have to be materialized to activate the spell/power/ability.



You mean that one place where it is using Guard as an example? The entire example still holds true even when you replace "Guard" with "Concealment" or any other power, spell, or ability that has a sustained effect.

And, we once again disagree. Problem is, you cannot point to an explicit RULE that states what you say it does. It is heavily implied, but never outright stated. If you could, there would be no debate on this, ever. And yet it crops up every few months. What does that tell you?

[Draco18s]

And, we once again disagree. Problem is, you cannot point to an explicit RULE that states what you say it does. It is heavily implied, but never outright stated. If you could, there would be no debate on this, ever. And yet it crops up every few months. What does that tell you?

Every few months? It's been like twice every since I joined this board.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Every few months? It's been like twice every since I joined this board.

Really, I have seen it twice, in different Threads in the last few months. I remember a year ago, a hand full of topics on it as well. And the year I joined, too. Hell, Anytime a Pixie Build is mentioned it seems to crop up. May not be their OWN topics, but the topic does indeed crop up a lot. *shrug*

[kzt]

And, we once again disagree. Problem is, you cannot point to an explicit RULE that states what you say it does. It is heavily implied, but never outright stated. If you could, there would be no debate on this, ever. And yet it crops up every few months. What does that tell you?

That people who hire writers for CGL should be fired. That the people who edit rules for CGL should be ashamed of themselves.

[Draco18s]

Let me make this very easy for you. Here's the quote about guard.

Since Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it).

"Since" also means "because"

because; inasmuch as: Since you're already here, you might as well stay.

As this word is of the grammatical structure of the sentence and not a game keyword, this word can be freely substituted. That gives us this:

Because Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it).

This sentence is pointing out a rule regarding physical powers not a special rule regarding Guard. "Because Guard is a physical power" and "Because physical powers require to be on the physical plane" is what is relevant here.

The interesting tidbit, however, is that spot at the end that says physical powers do not need to be maintained from the physical plane.

Ergo, Concealment can be sustained astrally.

Feel free to poke a hole in that logic, using logical fallacies.

[Prime Mover]

I've always treated concealment and stealth programs the same. Once you've done something to get noticed the benefit is gone.

[Draco18s]

I've always treated concealment and stealth programs the same. Once you've done something to get noticed the benefit is gone.

Which, of course, is not supported by the rules.

[Neraph]

And, we once again disagree. Problem is, you cannot point to an explicit RULE that states what you say it does. It is heavily implied, but never outright stated. If you could, there would be no debate on this, ever. And yet it crops up every few months. What does that tell you?

Actually, we have. A few times. It's in plain english in the Sustained section of critter Powers on page 293 of SR4A. The effect is sustained, regardless of what happens to the sustainer's plane of existence. Heck, if not for the rule that you can't sustain things while unconscious, you could have an unconscious spirit in its metaplane sustaining Concealment on people on the material plane. The next easy example of a direct, explicit rule that says exactly what Draco18s and I are saying is the one he's quoted a couple of times now: Street Magic, page 95, Spirit Services, third paragraph, second and third sentences. Those sentences use Guard as an example of what can be done with any Physical Power that can be Sustained - which is exactly what Concealment is. The effect is separate from the current plane of existence of the critter; hence the term "sustain."

[pbangarth]

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 27 2012, 07:46 AM) *
Assensing is used to interpret the aura you perceive, not to detect it in the first place.

well, if you had read the next few lines, you would not state untrue things ...

QUOTE (SR4A @ p.191)
An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is trying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations, an Assensing Test is made.

Well, you do make a good point in pointing out this sentence, which contradicts what is said earlier. But look at the Assensing Table on the same page. Nothing is mentioned in there about detecting the target, only about learning the characteristics of it. This supports the earlier text that says Assensing is about interpreting the aura. The description of the Concealment power says nothing about determining characteristics of the target.

It does talk, however, about using the power to counteract someone hiding. Which behaviour -is- mentioned in the Assensing Test description you point out. Well shit. "Untrue", to me then, looks like it depends on which part of this contradictory section one chooses to use.

[phlapjack77]

Actually, we have. A few times. It's in plain english in the Sustained section of critter Powers on page 293 of SR4A. The effect is sustained, regardless of what happens to the sustainer's plane of existence.

I think the relevant section here doesn't say anything about plane of existence, merely that LOS is not required to sustain a power.

"Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained after the power takes hold of its target."

The next easy example of a direct, explicit rule that says exactly what Draco18s and I are saying is the one he's quoted a couple of times now: Street Magic, page 95, Spirit Services, third paragraph, second and third sentences. Those sentences use Guard as an example of what can be done with any Physical Power that can be Sustained - which is exactly what Concealment is. The effect is separate from the current plane of existence of the critter; hence the term "sustain."

This doesn't look like a "direct, explicit rule". Something direct and explicit would say "Powers may be sustained no matter the plane of existence". The preceding sentence IS very explicit, where it says "Passive powers such as Astral Form, Energy Aura, or Materialization don’t require the use of services...". Nowhere is there an explicit sentence for sustaining powers and planes of existence.

Having said that, I agree that the best interpretation would be yours. But it's not explicit.

[Dakka Dakka]

I think the relevant section here doesn't say anything about plane of existence, merely that LOS is not required to sustain a power.

Being able to break LOS and to continue to sustain a power means you can break LOS in any possible way. It is irrelevant if the spirit does it by moving away (on the same plans) or shifting its presence to the astral plane. There is no explicit or implicit rule that the presence on the same plane is required for sustaining a power or spell.

[phlapjack77]

Being able to break LOS and to continue to sustain a power means you can break LOS in any possible way. It is irrelevant if the spirit does it by moving away (on the same plans) or shifting its presence to the astral plane. There is no explicit or implicit rule that the presence on the same plane is required for sustaining a power or spell.

Well, I was replying to Neraph's assertions that this was explicitly spelled out and "in plain English". It's not. It might be a very reasonable conclusion to draw, but...

You're right, there's no explicit or implicit rule for same plane-ness. There is the concept of spells not being able to cross planes, and physical powers not being usable on the astral etc. I know, I know, using a power != sustaining a power. But since there is no explicit or implicit rule either way, it's slightly open to interpretation.

[almost normal]

From such a pedantic reading, you could also say that you can continue sustaining spells after you die, since death breaks LOS.

[kzt]

From such a pedantic reading, you could also say that you can continue sustaining spells after you die, since death breaks LOS.

No, because you go unconscious as part of the that whole death thing, and that breaks the ability to sustain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)