Aliens in shadowrun. Options

[phlapjack77]

Detect Truth and Mindlink replicate only the effects of lie detectors and radio; Resonance Link replicates both the effect and the mechanism of a radio. The technomancer is explicitly sending information via radio waves. His nervous system, in addition to the normal properties of a metahuman nervous system, is also an organic radio, identical in its operating principles to the walkie-talkies you can buy in any electronics store. It is not magic, it is not psychic, it is a current running through a conductor and generating a modulated EM emission. The same is true of the other powers mentioned: they each replicate a piece of technology, not just the effects of that technology.

Resonance link does not just replicate any radio that I know of. Resonance link sets up a "one-way empathic link...the technomancer can discern the dominant mood and emotions of the linked companion." Mental images, emotions, whether the linked one is in danger...do these sound like a radio?

This is just one example of how the technomancer powers differ from technology. E-sensing allows sensing that someone else is a technomancer, not something an EMF meter can do. Resonance trodes allows dragging someone into hot VR, without that person having any network interaction of their own. No SR technology allows this.

But, again, I say so what? Just because some (many?) of the Technomancer powers replicate a piece of technology...the "psychic" part of it is that they do so without having said technology. And no need to access "mana" or anything else either. They do it all with the power of their brain.

Semantics is the study of meanings. Unless you're going to argue that made-up words are, by definition, meaningless, it is very much a semantic issue.

I'm going to argue that made-up words that apply to made-up phenomenon don't require such a strict adherence to meaning as actual, real words that apply to real things. What standard dictionary did you find the meaning of "psi waves" in, again? It's the ideas these made-up words represent that matters. Call them psi waves or neural fields or whatever, it's the idea of an invisible something reaching out from someone to affect the physical world.

In fact it was ninja-edited, but that doesn't matter because the point is immaterial. In the supers game Aberrant, all superhumans ("novas," in the game's jargon) are empowered by an organ in the brain which ordinary humans do not possess, the Mazarin-Rashoud Node. Nevertheless, the only novas who could be said to be "psychic" are those possessing powers directly related to the mind, and even that is purely fluff. Crunchwise, there are no psychics in Aberrant, any more than there are in Shadowrun.

Not sure about this non sequitur. Other games' treatment of psychics really doesn't apply, does it? I'm not arguing that SR psychics are also psychics in the Aberrant game world.

The single most identifiable common thread among depictions of psychic powers in fiction is that they are explicitly identified as psychics, or psions, or psionics, or some other immediately related term. The other common thread is that psychics wield "powers of the mind," or some similar phrase.

You read my mind (psychic!) - I was going to ask for your definition of what makes a psychic. It seems that one of your ideas is circular, the idea that psychics are considered psychic because they're called psychic. Your other idea, that psychics are such because they wield powers of the mind...I guess we could get into a discussion of mind vs. brain, but I'd rather not. You yourself have said Technomancers get their powers because of an altered brain. How is this not "powers of the mind"?

I posit that the single most common thread among depictions of psychic powers is having effects on the physical world or on other people's minds using nothing but your own mind powers and nothing else. Technomancers fit this depiction very aptly.

Bottom line: you can call technomancers psychics in your game if you want to, but you need to understand that you are flying in the face of SR canon by doing so.

You need to understand that this was more of a what-if discussion, and speaking for myself, was in no way trying to pretend or even caring that this is SR canon. I doubt anyone else was either, and so thank goodness the SR canon police can relax once more.

[Sengir]

Resonance link does not just replicate any radio that I know of. Resonance link sets up a "one-way empathic link...the technomancer can discern the dominant mood and emotions of the linked companion." Mental images, emotions, whether the linked one is in danger...do these sound like a radio?

Yep, like a radio transmitting Simsense information to be precise.

[Halinn]

Yep, like a radio transmitting Simsense information to be precise.

Radio waves can be intercepted.

[Sengir]

Radio waves can be intercepted.

...and where does it say that Resonance Link works in static zones or under heavy jamming?

[KCKitsune]

My question for everyone saying that Technomancers are NOT psionic is this... how are they generating those radio waves?

I don't know about you, but my ability to generate radio waves is non-existent.


@Sengir: where does it say that it doesn't work?

[Sengir]

I don't know about you, but my ability to generate radio waves is non-existent.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider my cellphone to have psi abilities. Might have something to do with the fact that EM radiation is a pretty mundane affair and has little to do with mind reading or levitation...

@Sengir: where does it say that it doesn't work?

Technomancers use the same matrix as anybody else, they just don't need a commlink/sim module. That means if they want to transfer data, they need matrix access or Mutual Signal Range.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I don't know about you, but I don't consider my cellphone to have psi abilities. Might have something to do with the fact that EM radiation is a pretty mundane affair and has little to do with mind reading or levitation...

Yes, but your cell phone does have an antenna. Radio Antennae are notably not structures found in the typical human brain.

Technomancers use the same matrix as anybody else, they just don't need a commlink/sim module. That means if they want to transfer data, they need matrix access or Mutual Signal Range.

Technomancers use the Matrix because it's the dominant form of electronics on the planet. But a Technomancer who can find a way to interface with ancient gear can still technomance it. Find an ancient Soviet SCUD launcher? Yeah, you can technomance it, if you can (a) somehow make it wireless, or (b) have the Skinlink echo.

[Lantzer]

Yes, but your cell phone does have an antenna. Radio Antennae are notably not structures found in the typical human brain.

An antenna is a piece of electrically conductive material that, when in the presence of a fluctuating EM field, experiences local voltage changes and current flow. Neurons, muscles, tin cans, a loop of wire, all can be used as antenna to one degree or another.

Whether they are _good_ antenna is another question.

There wasa sci-fi story written way back in the 1950s ("Waldo") by Heinlein which explored the possibility of now-modern widely prevalent EM fields causing subtle physiological damage due to continuous low-level interaction with the nervous system.

Trivia: This was also the short story which invented the term "waldo" for remotely operated mechanical arms.

[Sengir]

Yes, but your cell phone does have an antenna. Radio Antennae are notably not structures found in the typical human brain.

Except if you are are a TM. Read Emergence, Technomancers do not interact with devices by magic but by sending and receiving EM signals just like a commlink.

[Neraph]

Other problems with calling Technomancers psychics:
1) Telekinesis, including the ability to create elemental effects by manipulating kinetic energies.
2) Telepathy. Psychics can talk telepathically (brain-to-brain communication) with people who are not themselves telepaths.
3) Body control can be done slightly with Acceleration and a couple others, but psychics also have been "known" to alter themselves with abilities more akin to Adept abilities.
4) Psychoportation (teleportation). Again, a staple of magic in many settings, SR has already explained this one away... for now.

[Lionhearted]

Where are you getting these attributes you subscribe to "psychics" from Neraph?
Just curious, feels like I missed something with people stating what can and cannot be psychic... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
The broad definition that I usually run into, as portrayed by fiction and real life "studies" all revolves around unlocking the hidden potential of the human mind, whatever this potential might manifest as.
TM's fit that definition pretty well imho.
I must say I greatly enjoy the TM fluff in this thread, gives lots of ideas.

[Irion]

Yes, TMs fit the definition of psychics, since it is a very broad one.

To demand they may fit the definition fleshed out in any other fictional game, movie or book does not make any sense at all.

Following that logic mages would not be mages for the lack of pointy hats.

[Neraph]

Where are you getting these attributes you subscribe to "psychics" from Neraph?
Just curious, feels like I missed something with people stating what can and cannot be psychic... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
The broad definition that I usually run into, as portrayed by fiction and real life "studies" all revolves around unlocking the hidden potential of the human mind, whatever this potential might manifest as.
TM's fit that definition pretty well imho.
I must say I greatly enjoy the TM fluff in this thread, gives lots of ideas.

Dungeons and Dragons. Babylon 5. Vladimir Taltoss. Phenomonon. Stranger in a Strange Land. Wikipedia.

I could go on.

EDIT: Also see this list, which includes levitation, healing, telekinesis, and other abilities that TM's can't do.

[Lionhearted]

Ah but you don't have to possess ALL of the traits to qualify under a broad definition.
Wikipedia defines a psychic simply as someone capable of ESP, thus anyone with a form extrasensory perception can qualify for the definition. It's not so much about what they can't do but more about what they can do.
I mean it's not like its a recognised phenomenon with a rigid set of qualifiers, its just a catch all term for "brain powers"

[Neraph]

Right, but the complete and utter lack of any of the more obvious or significant abilities would seem to disqualify TM's as psychics. It'd be like mages being unable to cast spells or summon spirits.

[Lionhearted]

You mean except the most defining characteristic?
Being able to "feel" the matrix, if that's not ESP what is it?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, but the complete and utter lack of any of the more obvious or significant abilities would seem to disqualify TM's as psychics. It'd be like mages being unable to cast spells or summon spirits.

So a subset of the Full abilities is not enough to qualify for the name: Psionic?
TM's are capable of Cyberpathy and Cyberkinesis (Pretty darn significant if you ask me). Niche abilities to be sure, but they do fulfill the core abilities of these powers. And, as was mentioned up-thread (by you even), they are also capable of limited Body Modification as well. Who is to say what they will be capable of 10 , or 30, or even 60 years in the future. *shrug*

Most Psionic Individuals do not start fully formed with all the powers possible in the Psionic Arsenal. Pyrokinetics, for example, are generally only capable of Manipulating Fire. Charlie McGee was a Classic Pyrokinetic (Get an Internet Cookie if you know from where). She could not talk to people psychically, or force them to do things against their will, or any number of other Psionic/Psychic Phenomenom. She was, however, undeniably Pyrokinetic, which is a Psionic/Psychic Discipline. *shrug*

[ZeroPoint]

This is why I said previously, that (assuming your playing your own version of the story and are not afraid to stray from canon) perhaps technomancers are an early form of psionics. The first and earliest form being the otakus, later being replaced by technomancers. Another 20 years down the road, and new forms of psionic capability other than cyberpathy/cyberkinesis begin to appear.

[Lantzer]

I'd say that the key reason to deny that TMs are psychics is the lack of what are generally considered the most basic, core abilities of a psychic, according to TV and popular culture:

Clairvoyance
Mind-reading
Precognition

And a little less common,
Psychometry
Communing with dead people.

Cyberpathy and cyberkinesis are way off on the fringe, such that most folks wouldn't even associate them with the word "psychic".
Magic really works better as a model than technomancy.

[Halinn]

If those three are what it takes for you to consider something a psychic, then they already exist in SR. Magicians can do all that. If you then begin to cry "that's magic, not psionics", remember that that is just a label.

[Sengir]

Wikipedia defines a psychic simply as someone capable of ESP

Thermographic vision would also qualify as ESP, so trolls and dwarfs are psionics, too?

[Lionhearted]

Sight is one of our senses its not extrasensory if it enhances an existing sense

[KCKitsune]

Other problems with calling Technomancers psychics:
1) Telekinesis, including the ability to create elemental effects by manipulating kinetic energies.
2) Telepathy. Psychics can talk telepathically (brain-to-brain communication) with people who are not themselves telepaths.
3) Body control can be done slightly with Acceleration and a couple others, but psychics also have been "known" to alter themselves with abilities more akin to Adept abilities.
4) Psychoportation (teleportation). Again, a staple of magic in many settings, SR has already explained this one away... for now.

I don't mind that Technomancers CAN'T do those... that's not their ability. Also Teleportation breaks the game and that's why it's not allowed. I mean think about it, if a Shadowrunner could teleport, then as soon as things go pear shaped, *POOF*, the mage bugs out and leaves everyone else high and dry. EVERYONE would play mages. It would be the only logical character type.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider my cellphone to have psi abilities. Might have something to do with the fact that EM radiation is a pretty mundane affair and has little to do with mind reading or levitation...

No it has nothing to do with mind reading or levitation, but if you could make phone calls without your cell phone or a cybernetic implant, then you would be psychic.



Also AGAIN: How are Technomancers generating those radio waves? What process allows them to do what they do. Mages in Shadowrun can access the Mana Sphere. How are technomancers doing their thing... INDEPENDENT OF THE MANA SPHERE?

[Irion]

@KCKitsune

I don't mind that Technomancers CAN'T do those... that's not their ability. Also Teleportation breaks the game and that's why it's not allowed. I mean think about it, if a Shadowrunner could teleport, then as soon as things go pear shaped, *POOF*, the mage bugs out and leaves everyone else high and dry. EVERYONE would play mages. It would be the only logical character type.

Well, if the mage is only active on the astral, he can do it. Free spirits get this option...
It is more about transporting stuff. Teleporting means, that as soon as you reached the objective you win. And the way out is the major problem in most runs.
So it is practically an I WIN BUTTON for half of the game.

[Neraph]

No it has nothing to do with mind reading or levitation, but if you could make phone calls without your cell phone or a cybernetic implant, then you would be psychic.

Checking over telepathy again, it seems that the ability to only telepathically communicate with other TMs could possibly qualify them as telepaths, and by extention psychic. However, the vast majority of popular belief about telepathy is incompatible with that concept. And again, the ability to make literal phone calls with your brain is absent in popular telepathic belief.

Also AGAIN: How are Technomancers generating those radio waves? What process allows them to do what they do. Mages in Shadowrun can access the Mana Sphere. How are technomancers doing their thing... INDEPENDENT OF THE MANA SPHERE?

That is an irrelevant argument. Whether or not psychic abilities and magical abilities use the same source of energy is not of concern. In most systems or beliefs, magical power and psychic power are interchangeable, with only the fewest abilities making each unique.