Not enough Power Points Options

[The Dread Polack]

I'm playing a ghoul physical adept. I gimped myself hard with this character concept. My attributes are huge, but I am broke and have few skill points. So far, I'm not regretting the character, since he's been fun, and even though my dice pools with my specialties are often smaller than other characters', I can do a lot of things the other PCs can't.

But, anyway, Starting with a -1 essence due to being a ghoul, then another -1 from the cybereyes I took, buying my magic up is already very expensive. I heard that there is a somewhat common house rule where adepts get a power point not only when they increase their Magic, but also when they initiate. I am trying to make the case for this house rule with my GM, so I'm wondering what people's experience with it here might be, and what the pros and cons of it are.

[Tanegar]

It's not really a house rule, but an optional rule from Street Magic. The rule is that, when initiating, an adept may choose to gain a Power Point instead of a metamagic technique.

[The Dread Polack]

Oh, well that's perfect, actually. Being official will certainly help my case, and as an adept without much use for metamagic, this should work out nicely. Paying 11 karma to initiate again instead of 30 karma to raise my magic sounds much better.

Thanks!

[Tanegar]

Eleven karma? Karma cost to initiate is [10 + (New grade x 3)], or 13 for your first initiation. Also, raising your Magic from 4 (its maximum since you lost 2 Essence) to 5 (its new maximum after your first initiation) costs 25 karma.

[Irion]

@Tanegar
You can get a discount on initiating max. 40%. Not that hard to get RAW, espacially for mages...

[Tanegar]

I had forgotten about that, thank you.

[The Dread Polack]

Don't have my character sheet in front of me, so my math might be off.

His magic is also down a point due to his cyber eyes, so I'm really raising it from 5 to 6, unless I'm doing that wrong

[Tanegar]

Give us all the info. You started with 4.something Essence, correct? You lost a full point by being a ghoul, and some fraction of a point by getting cybereyes. This took your maximum Magic down to 4. How many times have you initiated thus far?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Don't have my character sheet in front of me, so my math might be off.

His magic is also down a point due to his cyber eyes, so I'm really raising it from 5 to 6, unless I'm doing that wrong

You should raise from your current point, and do not include the -2 for essence loss.

For example:

You start with 2 Magic and 6 Essence and implant some cyberware, incuring 1 point of Essence & Magic loss - you are now at 1 Magic and 5 Essence.
If you want to raise it back to 2, you have to pay 10 Karma (5*new Rating) -> 2M, 5E.
Now you implant anoter point of Essence in Ware -> 1M, 4E
Raising it to 2 again: 1->2: 10 Karma.

[The Dread Polack]

Okay, hopefully I'm getting this right.

I started as a ghoul, using the Shadowrunner's Companion rules. Ghouls have an essense of 5. I bought his magic all the way to 5, which cost 30 BP + 25 for the final point, or 55 total.

I also got him cybereyes, which dropped his essence to 4 point something, which in turn dropped his effective magic to 4.

As I understood it, if I want to raise his effective magic to 5, I have to raise his actual magic to 6, which is his new maximum. That's 30 karma.

NiL_FisK_Urd: can you point me at something in the rules to explain this?

[Neraph]

It's logic. Your Magic is a 4, not a (5 - 1). Therefore you're raising your Magic to a 5, which costs New Rating x 5, not Before-it-was-modified-Rating x 5.

[The Dread Polack]

I would argue it's not quite that obvious. I guess I will take another look at the rules regarding this and talk to my GM.

[BishopMcQ]

Dread--The best example I can find is SR4A, p 177. "A character with a Magic of 4, for example, whose Essence is reduced to 5.8 has her Magic immediately reduced to 3 and her maximum to 5.
Further Essence reductions do not reduce the character’s Magic again until Essence drops below 5."

So, if you bought Magic 5 (Essence 5), then implanted the Cyberware, it would fall to Magic 4 (Essence 4.7ish). Your Maximum Magic would be 4, so it'd be Initiate to raise Maximum to 5, then increase Magic from 4-->5 (25 karma).

Hope that helps for your talk with the GM.

[The Dread Polack]

This could very well be one of those things I've always assumed but was wrong about. It's a good thing I check with you guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

I seem to recall (it's been a long time) that SR3 had some wonkiness about Essence reductions, Magic vs Effective magic, and geasa to counteract the Essence loss. That may be part of the confusion.

[Neraph]

The only other correlation is how raising Burned Edge is handled, which is very similar, except your maximum Edge doesn't decrease when you Burn Edge.

[The Dread Polack]

Yeah, I had a look through the rules and found nothing like I was thinking about. That's good news for me.

I guess my next question is how this applies to character creation?

I know this sounds like pedantic min/maxing, but that's what forums are for, so here goes:

Page 80 of SR4A says "Players may purchase abilities in any order they choose..." So, do I drop my Magic before or after I buy the cyberware?

For instance, page 77 of The Runner's Companion says:

Magic and essence

Starting Infected characters start with Essence 5 and Magic 1 during character generation. The Infected may increase their Magic attribute with BP or Karma as any other attribute to a maximum of 5 (+ initiate grade).

That means I don't have to pay 65 points to raise my Magic to 6, then promptly lose a point. I can spend 55 points to raise it to 5 and leave it there.

Does this same concept apply to Essence lost through Cyberwear? I didn't think it did, but now I am wondering? When I made this character, I spent 55 BPs, as I described above, to raise my Magic to 5, then bought cybereyes and dropped it to 4. Can I have my 10 BPs back? I'd like to spend it on a couple more skill points (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

Yeah, I had a look through the rules and found nothing like I was thinking about. That's good news for me.

I guess my next question is how this applies to character creation?

I know this sounds like pedantic min/maxing, but that's what forums are for, so here goes:

Page 80 of SR4A says "Players may purchase abilities in any order they choose..." So, do I drop my Magic before or after I buy the cyberware?

For instance, page 77 of The Runner's Companion says:



That means I don't have to pay 65 points to raise my Magic to 6, then promptly lose a point. I can spend 55 points to raise it to 5 and leave it there.

Does this same concept apply to Essence lost through Cyberwear? I didn't think it did, but now I am wondering? When I made this character, I spent 55 BPs, as I described above, to raise my Magic to 5, then bought cybereyes and dropped it to 4. Can I have my 10 BPs back? I'd like to spend it on a couple more skill points (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It would be as though you had bought a 6 Magic and then lost two points from the Essence loss for being a Ghoul and the loss from the implant, so you would have to pay the full 65 BP to have a Magic of 4.

[Udoshi]

Not necessarily. Ghouls get a leg up on costs, because they explicitly start with a magic of 1 and an essence of 5. There's no 'loss' involved, it's just their starting stats.

[Thanee]

As for Power Points, there are three official rules that help here.

1) The already mentioned "Power Point instead of Metamagic" optional rule from Street Magic. It is quite commonly used, AFAIK. Note, however, that there are a number of really good Metamagic techniques for Adepts (even some Adept-specific ones, like Adept Centering).
2) Another option rule from Street Magic, that allows Adepts to take a Voluntary Geas, in order to make some (or all) powers cheaper (reducing the cost to 75%).
3) A Quality from the e-book publication Way of the Adept, which costs 10 BP (or 20 Karma) and gives a similar cost discount (cost down to 75%) to some specific powers related to the chosen way.

Bye
Thanee

[BishopMcQ]

The Way of the Adept (IIRC) says that if GMs are using the "XX's Way" Qualities, not to use the optional rule from Street Magic. So, add it in as another question to ask your GM about.

[Neraph]

Does this same concept apply to Essence lost through Cyberwear? I didn't think it did, but now I am wondering? When I made this character, I spent 55 BPs, as I described above, to raise my Magic to 5, then bought cybereyes and dropped it to 4. Can I have my 10 BPs back? I'd like to spend it on a couple more skill points (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Talk with your GM about this. I'd allow it but there are many on these forums who say otherwise.

[mister__joshua]

It can get problematic later though. This is related to the 'can I awaken after I've got my cyber' thing. From a world perspective it makes sense but can cause power problems. The thing you suggested is very mild but ultimately the same as an adept buying 4 essence of ware and then just buying 2 magic, being a burnout but this would save 40bps and be really powerful

[Halinn]

There's actually an order in which characters are built (SR4A, p. 80-89): Metatype, Qualities, Attributes, Skills, Resources.

Because metatype/qualities comes before attributes, ghouls will only have to pay to raise magic from 1 to their maximum of 5, as the essence loss happens before attributes. Cyberware, on the other hand, comes after attributes.

[The Dread Polack]

There's actually an order in which characters are built (SR4A, p. 80-89): Metatype, Qualities, Attributes, Skills, Resources.

Because metatype/qualities comes before attributes, ghouls will only have to pay to raise magic from 1 to their maximum of 5, as the essence loss happens before attributes. Cyberware, on the other hand, comes after attributes.

Page 80 specifically says "Players may purchase abilities in any order they choose..." They may be listed in a particular order, however the rules make the point clear that you don't have to follow that order. I actually thought of this, which is why I checked for it and provided the quote in an above post.