Catching up... Options

[SpellBinder]

The details of the Mr. Johnson character in that mission say otherwise, saying that "Yuichotol is an old spirit missed by Ghostwalker..." Pretty strong suggestion that there is only one. Unfortunately there's no greater description of her remains other than the intact skull and a collection of broken crystal bones.

And with what Lionhearted added, if this is true of Pueblo mythology about snakes, then Yuichotol's form of a serpent would be quite fitting for that of a dragon as they're portrayed in Shadowrun. The cunning & intelligent part.

[Lionhearted]

I know it possesses those traits when described in the chinese zodiac, only know that because I was born in a year of the serpent (not to be confused with the dragon)

[Nath]

Now it's also possible that Frosty is wrong in her assessment that the woman seen with Ghostwalker is Zebulon. It wouldn't be the first time I've found where a cannon character has made a mistake about something that the inside mission details say differently.

The Clutch of Dragons states the spirit Ghostwalker returned with is "Zebulon, the Spirit of Denver" who has been "reunited with the rest of the spirit of Ghostwalker's deceased mate". This as Game Information intended for the Gamemaster, not an in-context Jackpoint posting.

And I do think it'd be possible that Zebulon Pike could've become a free spirit after his death. It wouldn't be the only incident of something magically happening during the mana down cycle.

I think the story would need to be fleshed out a bit to be satisfying. They were plenty of generals and explorers in US history (not to mention the rest of the world), and I don't think a lot of them become Force 18 free great form spirits for no particular reason.
But maybe in the Earthdawn-Shadowrun timeline, Pikes had an encounter with powerful supernatural forces that doesn't appear in the official history. Like, trying to climb a mountain with a handful of men, and starving for two days. Afterall, for Ghostwalker to vow to protect the area and Dunkelzahn to install a lair there, the Front Range obviously must have been a somewhat special place (like, where the spirits of the Great Plains meet the spirit of the Rocky Mountains) long before the city of Denver was founded.

[Bull]

One thing to keep in mind regarding the Denver Missions... During Season 1 and Season 2, Missions was strictly a project run by fans. It had some tertiary support from FanPro, but none of the adventures had to go through any kind of approval process, nor was anyone who worked on them paid or contracted through FanPro/WizKids (Who controlled the license and property at the time). They are largely "unofficial" material, though some of it has trickled into canon since then.

It wasn't until Season 3 that Missions became full on official and the adventures started being reflected in Canon, and in Season 4 we've taken it a step further and actually worked some of the Missions adventure plots into major storylines going on in the books.

Also, Zebulon was fragmented into a number of pieces. Each piece had it's own personality, and possibly it's own form. One of those could easily have had her original name and some memory of who she used to be, but reflected the Pueblo or Aztlan sector by looking like a serpent.

[SpellBinder]

Lofwyr must've done some serious damage to Yuichotol that's not ever explained in what I've read for Ghostwalker to apparently take what remained of her spirit to merge with the grown parts of another spirit (Zebulon) into a combined whole that's greater than the sum of its parts and nothing like any one of them. I think Ghostwalker's set himself up for a Shakespearean tragedy trying to bring his mate back to the material. Can't think of anything else to explain why they were merged if Ghostwalker may have had the option to just bring Yuichotol back on her own. Overall, still, I keep thinking of Zebulon and Yuichotol as two separate entities, up until the events in Clutch Of Dragons.

And as for what you said about the Denver missions, Bull, I recall you posting the same somewhere else around here before. I do recall some of the connections between them and stuff mentioned in Spy Games, including mention of the alchera itself from the mission I mentioned earlier.

[Sengir]

Copied right from the mission: "He describes Yuichotol as a large water serpent with silver and blue scales and large horns of crystal. She’s feisty, but loves verbal banter." He being the Mr. Johnson who pays the team for the job, and someone who's worked for Ghostwalker for years.

WP says: "To the Muscogee people, the Horned Serpent is a type of underwater serpent covered with iridescent, crystalline scales and a single, large crystal in its forehead. Both the scales and crystals are prized for their powers of divination"

Looks like a standard case of mix-and-match mythology from different sources (which are mostly also just mix and match from even older traditions).

[Bull]

Lofwyr must've done some serious damage to Yuichotol that's not ever explained in what I've read for Ghostwalker to apparently take what remained of her spirit to merge with the grown parts of another spirit (Zebulon) into a combined whole that's greater than the sum of its parts and nothing like any one of them. I think Ghostwalker's set himself up for a Shakespearean tragedy trying to bring his mate back to the material. Can't think of anything else to explain why they were merged if Ghostwalker may have had the option to just bring Yuichotol back on her own. Overall, still, I keep thinking of Zebulon and Yuichotol as two separate entities, up until the events in Clutch Of Dragons.

Who said Zebulon and Yuichotol were different spirits? My take is simply that somehow or other Yuichitol became a spirit at some point prior to the 6th world starting. When she showed up in the 6th world, she was now going by the name Zebulon and became tied to Denver somehow. Considering that it's implied in YotC that Ghostwalker had a lair hidden near Denver, it's possible that's actually the place Zebulon was initially tied to, and was drawn to Denver later on. Then she Fractured. And Ghostwalker has been doing what he can to piece her back together ever since. (If you read "Already Here" section in Artifacts Unbound, you'll see Ghostwalker has been working toward that end for quite some time).

I will also note that CGL is not bound to follow Earthdawn slavishly. It's a benchmark, but it's not a bible. And with ED being handled by two other companies now (and has been for some time), it actually becomes slightly problematic to reference it too directly.

And as for what you said about the Denver missions, Bull, I recall you posting the same somewhere else around here before. I do recall some of the connections between them and stuff mentioned in Spy Games, including mention of the alchera itself from the mission I mentioned earlier.

Yeah, consider the Season 1 and Season 2 Missions to be like the Star Trek novels or the Star Wars Extended Universe stuff. They're approved by the studios, but the official Canon is not bound by them. They will borrow and incorporate the cool stuff at will though. But until it shows up in a movie or TV show, it's not 100% official.

Bull

[SpellBinder]

Well, outside of Clutch Of Dragons I hadn't seen anything to suggest they weren't anything but two different spirits. Granted my knowledge of the material is rather limited prior to the SR4 books. Sadly I haven't read that section in Artifacts Unbound as of this posting. My reading habits with any game books is rather piecemail, focusing more on what catches my interest at the moment.

But then, what was then and what is now are two different things. If Yuichotol = Zebulon now, then that's not a problem.

[mister__joshua]

I have a related but somewhat divergent question. Why do all these different nations want a piece of Denver so badly anyway? What's so special about it that makes it worth having multiple summits and treaties over? It's not like they're lacking in land or anything. Is it just a case of 'well, they've got some so I want some too' or is there something more to it that I've missed?

[Smirnov]

Back in the day everyone wanted a piece of Zebulon. At least, it was the matter for Aztech - Denver is a very potent magical location. After all that happens - maybe not so much. But it's a matter of prestige and political weight.

[Smirnov]

One more thing came up.
What is the issue between Bull and Harlequin? Who is Johny and what is his story?
And in Clutch of Dragons there's a comment from Bull: 'I need to ask straight out: What was the offhand comment you mentioned the last time he came up? It seems appropriate to the current discussion.' What 'last time' is he talking about?

[Sengir]

I have a related but somewhat divergent question. Why do all these different nations want a piece of Denver so badly anyway? What's so special about it that makes it worth having multiple summits and treaties over? It's not like they're lacking in land or anything. Is it just a case of 'well, they've got some so I want some too' or is there something more to it that I've missed?

Nations don't have much to brag about anymore (Most land ceded to corps? Most powerless legislative?), so maintaining symbols of former glory might be an even higher priority than usual for those still interested in the anachronistic concept of nation states.

[Wakshaani]

I have a related but somewhat divergent question. Why do all these different nations want a piece of Denver so badly anyway? What's so special about it that makes it worth having multiple summits and treaties over? It's not like they're lacking in land or anything. Is it just a case of 'well, they've got some so I want some too' or is there something more to it that I've missed?

That goes back to the return of Magic.

The Native Nations staged an uprising and went to war with the United States and Canada, which hiccuped to a ceasefire almost as soon as it started, when the Great Ghost Dance went, "See these volcanoes? Kaboom." Faced with an unknown weapon, the US called a time out and sued for peace. And kinda won the negotiations, really. They gave up a large chunk o' land (About a third or a quarter of the US, around 80% of Canada) and the Natives accepted.

Denver was chosen as the location to sign the treaty and, furthermore, became "neutral territory", where politics could be wrangled without, say, the president of the US having to fly into Sioux country. Much like Berlin during the Cold War, it became a handy place for spies to do spystuff and for nations to talk to one another. The city was chopped up into sections ... the Pueblo Corporate Council, the Sioux Nation, the Ute Nation, Aztlan, the United States, and Canada each got a slice. The US and Canadian sides later merged to form the UCAS, and later split to create the UCAS and CAS. The six slices existed in relative harmony. The Ute got absorbed into Aztlan, leaving five, which imbalanced things a bit, then Ghostwalker showed up and kicked out Aztlan, giving their territory to the CAS, leaving just four ... the PCC, Sioux, UCAS, and CAS.

The two Treaties have expired, so now everyone's waiting to see when a third will be started, but that had a fault when Ghostwalker showed up and gave the Azzie reps a deathglare, until Peri swooped them out of there. Since then, no more negotiations, so the whole city's up in the air and kinda nervous.

You also have some voices that would love a seat at the table ... the S-S Council, for instance, or the Tir, the Canadian native nations, and, obviously, Aztlan wants back in, the California Free State would like to be in there ... everyone wants a seat at the Grown-Up Table, in essence. Right now, Ghostwalker decides who gets to have a chair, but ever since Zebulon came back, he's been ... different.

[Faelan]

I will also note that CGL is not bound to follow Earthdawn slavishly. It's a benchmark, but it's not a bible. And with ED being handled by two other companies now (and has been for some time), it actually becomes slightly problematic to reference it too directly.

Of course Livingroom Games is quite dead, and Redbrick has shut down, though the crew has moved over to the resurrected FASA.

[Bull]

One more thing came up.
What is the issue between Bull and Harlequin? Who is Johny and what is his story?
And in Clutch of Dragons there's a comment from Bull: 'I need to ask straight out: What was the offhand comment you mentioned the last time he came up? It seems appropriate to the current discussion.' What 'last time' is he talking about?

Read Bull and Harlequin's entries in Street Legends and Street Legends supplemental. It's been skirted around a bit, mostly because it's a lot of in character backstory that isn't necessarily all that interesting and largely hasn't been relevant to the Jackpoint discussions at hand. It sort of refers back to the original version of Bull that I played in our home game, coupled with a long-running joke that as a writer I wanted to kill off Harlequin some day.

In the end, it just became fun to have a character who knows more-or-less who Harley is (Bull's not fully aware of the 4th world stuff), knows he's completely outgunned, and hates the elf anyway (and who isn't another Immortal Elf). And don't worry, we all know Bull has zero chance of ever actually killing Harlequin.

Short In Character answer though: Johnny 99 is an Amerind Coyote Shaman who was Bull's Shadowrunning Partner. They were largely a 2-man team operating out of Chicago, and were trapped behind the wall with their families when the bugs hit and the CZ went up. They escaped with the help of Harlequin, and a few years later he wanted repayment. Harlequin and Harlequin's Back are not the only times Harley has led groups into the metaplanes to try plug up the Horrors. He dragged Bull & Johnny and some other allies of theirs into the metaplanes, and Johnny and several others had to sacrifice themselves to plug things up. Harlequin didn't tell us this in advance, and Johnny sacrificed himself to save Bull, since Bull had children.

Bull will never forgive Harley for that.

As for the bit in Clutch, I'll have to look that up later. I'm not certain offhand, and have to head off for work. What page is that on though, to help me look it up easier?

[Sengir]

The city was chopped up into sections ... the Pueblo Corporate Council, the Sioux Nation, the Ute Nation, Aztlan, the United States, and Canada each got a slice.

Denver was divided between the nations which could claim the place with some historical legitimacy. So Canada did not get their share, because nobody ever claimed Colorado as the ancient homeland of Canadians.

Of course that does not explain why other nations want in, who never held any stakes in the area...on the other hand, who said that national ambition has to make sense?

[Smirnov]

You also have some voices that would love a seat at the table ... the S-S Council, for instance, or the Tir, the Canadian native nations, and, obviously, Aztlan wants back in, the California Free State would like to be in there ... everyone wants a seat at the Grown-Up Table, in essence. Right now, Ghostwalker decides who gets to have a chair, but ever since Zebulon came back, he's been ... different.

Are the reasons they want to get there the same as back in the day of forming Denver? Allies released their parts of Berlin some time after the war, but Denver still seems to be a wet dream for everyone. Is it only the convinient place to make politics or have some new agenda appeared through the years?

Read Bull and Harlequin's entries in Street Legends and Street Legends supplemental. It's been skirted around a bit, mostly because it's a lot of in character backstory that isn't necessarily all that interesting and largely hasn't been relevant to the Jackpoint discussions at hand. It sort of refers back to the original version of Bull that I played in our home game, coupled with a long-running joke that as a writer I wanted to kill off Harlequin some day.

I definitely have to re-read Street Legends, seems there is a lot that I missed on the first read. Thanks for clearing this for me!
...and you can't even imagine how jealous I am of you for having a game character made canon! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As for the bit in Clutch, I'll have to look that up later. I'm not certain offhand, and have to head off for work. What page is that on though, to help me look it up easier?

It's p. 33, the exchange between Bull and Frosty:

>I need to ask straight out: What was the offhand comment you mentioned the last time he came up? It seems appropriate to the current discussion.
> Bull

> I think the context is pretty clear when combined with his decision to “choose a side.”
> Frosty

Still more on Harlequin. In the fiction piece about him Lugh thinks to himself 'she is not really dead', 'she' obviously being Aina. Is there anything more on this issue? Where can I read on Harlequins actions between Artifacts Unbound and now? Street Legends supplemental?

[Sengir]

Allies released their parts of Berlin some time after the war

Some 46 years after the war. Until 1991 Berlin lived a weird existence between federal state and foreign soil, probably the best-known consequence was that moving to Berlin (or paying a somebody to register you as sublease (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) granted an exemption from the draft.

[Nath]

Who said Zebulon and Yuichotol were different spirits? My take is simply that somehow or other Yuichitol became a spirit at some point prior to the 6th world starting. When she showed up in the 6th world, she was now going by the name Zebulon and became tied to Denver somehow. Considering that it's implied in YotC that Ghostwalker had a lair hidden near Denver, it's possible that's actually the place Zebulon was initially tied to, and was drawn to Denver later on. Then she Fractured. And Ghostwalker has been doing what he can to piece her back together ever since. (If you read "Already Here" section in Artifacts Unbound, you'll see Ghostwalker has been working toward that end for quite some time).

The Clutch of Dragons is not very clear on the distinction between Zebulon and Yuichotol in the past or present. For the people who do not have the book, here's the relevant excerpt from The Clutch of Dragons:

The Clutch of Dragons, page 133
When Ghostwalker returned he brought Zebulon, the Spirit of Denver, back with him. She was first fragmented in 2017 when two magicians summoned her simultaneously. Zebulon is now greater than the whole of her fragments, and she is even more powerful than she was before her fragmentation. She has been reunited with the rest of the spirit of Ghostwalker’s deceased mate, which had been fragmented when Lofwyr tried and failed to destroy her several thousand years ago. In addition, she has gained the experience and power each fragment accumulated on its own over the last six decades.
In effect, Zebulon is a unique spirit that combines a great dragon’s astral form with the Spirit of Denver. While Zebulon’s physical body ceased to exist long ago, science and magic can do strange things in the Sixth World. It may be that she will assume a permanent physical presence once more—something that would greatly transform dragon society forever. For now, though, she remains a spirit, and she follows the rules for free spirits unless otherwise noted.
Zebulon’s trauma from being fragmented into multiple spirits that operated unchecked for decades has not yet been healed, which sometimes causes fluctuations in her mood that alters the local background count around the Front Range Free Zone.

It could be pointed out that Zebulon has been "reunited" with the spirit of Yuichotol, and not simply "united". But it also reads Zebulon "was first fragmented in 2017": not something you would write if the spirit itself was already the fragment of something else in the first place.

Having Zebulon and Yuichotol being the same spirit, or at least the former a part of the later, would help avoiding to make the story overly complicated. It would possibly require to retcon Denver SB, since there are no particular reason for Yuichotol spirit to have been a city spirit before settling in the area that would become Denver (unless she had a first job experience when Ghostwalker found her an internship as Spirit of Throal at some point during the Fourth Age).

It worth nothing that 1) Yuichotol was a spirit without a body 2) Ghostwalker spend some time trapped in the same distant metaplane than shedim spirits, who are well known for their know-how on how to occupy dead body. Was he searching a way for his mate to get a new body?

I will also note that CGL is not bound to follow Earthdawn slavishly. It's a benchmark, but it's not a bible. And with ED being handled by two other companies now (and has been for some time), it actually becomes slightly problematic to reference it too directly.

I would make a difference between Earthdawn books published by the original FASA and those published by Redbrick or Mongoose. The former were written by the same people who were writting Shadowrun, with a clear intent to tie the two games that came to be known by customers/players.

There are plenty of plots for which the planned outcome is lost because the original author is no longer around. Or even if a note of some sort exists somewhere, the current writers feel free to ignore it because it didn't made it into published canon (or because said original author threatened to sue if any of his ideas appear in a book...).

But for anything that was written down in a book, and read by customers/players, I'd expect them to make an effort to at least take into account what have been written, and if there must be a retcon, to be creative. Doing otherwise I think, is a lack of respect for those who worked on Shadowrun before them, even if part of that work was released under the Earthdawn title.

But, in fact, CGL is not even bound by its own books, if they don't want to.

[Nath]

I have a related but somewhat divergent question. Why do all these different nations want a piece of Denver so badly anyway? What's so special about it that makes it worth having multiple summits and treaties over? It's not like they're lacking in land or anything. Is it just a case of 'well, they've got some so I want some too' or is there something more to it that I've missed?

In 2017, Denver was one of the largest metropolitan areas in the territories the US were handing to the NAN. For the US administration, there was an obvious interest in getting a special status, because every US citizen that could keep his home and his job was one less angry voter for the next election day. Also, they may have considered Denver could be a Trojan Horse for the NAN economy to stay dependent on US imports and investments. The Sioux were lacking a major urban center and economical hub. The Ute didn't want the Pueblo to get Denver, and the Pueblo didn't want the Ute to get it. And for Aztlan, getting to control a part of what was previously a US city was one major political and diplomatic achievement, a show of force.

In 2072, as far as Spy Games goes, only Salish-Shidhe and Algonkin-Manitou actually wants to get a seat on Denver Council. The Salish-Shidhe are trying probably just for the opportunity to trade favor with the UCAS regarding Seattle, and maybe also to demonstrate that the Pueblo and the Sioux are not the only NAN that matter on the diplomatic scene. The Algonkin-Manitou are just a proxy for Aztechnology to return in Denver. For the countries who already control a sector, there's little more than national pride. Which, in some of those countries, like Sioux or CAS, means a lot. Compare that to those tiny islands in the South China Sea nowadays. The rest is just the diplomatic game.

[Bull]

I would make a difference between Earthdawn books published by the original FASA and those published by Redbrick or Mongoose. The former were written by the same people who were writting Shadowrun, with a clear intent to tie the two games that came to be known by customers/players.

There are plenty of plots for which the planned outcome is lost because the original author is no longer around. Or even if a note of some sort exists somewhere, the current writers feel free to ignore it because it didn't made it into published canon (or because said original author threatened to sue if any of his ideas appear in a book...).

But for anything that was written down in a book, and read by customers/players, I'd expect them to make an effort to at least take into account what have been written, and if there must be a retcon, to be creative. Doing otherwise I think, is a lack of respect for those who worked on Shadowrun before them, even if part of that work was released under the Earthdawn title.

But, in fact, CGL is not even bound by its own books, if they don't want to.

The problem is a matter of licensing. Topps owns nothing for Earthdawn, and CGL has no license to use Earthdawn information. The only stuff we can reference at this point directly is anything that was published in a Shadowrun book already. *A* 4th world existed, and obviously it looks a lot like the Earthdawn being published by the remains of Red Brick and the new FASA, but it's no longer the sa me 4th world.

If we ever published a book with an Obsidiman, or if I referred to Simon Andrews from Missions as a T'Skrang, FASA could sue us for infringement, and likely would have to because of the way certain copyright laws work. Heck, despite Simon being an obviuos reference to a T'Skrang, even then we were careful to make sure he looks a little different than the traditional T'Skrang. And he's simply a Changeling now.

Bull

[Smirnov]

Read The Clutch of Dragons till the end and I withdraw the question about Aina. I think I got it. At least I have a suspicion...
But the other question is, if Celedyr is in Albuquerque, isn't he a bit too close to Sirrurg, who is nesting in/razing the same area?

[Nath]

If we ever published a book with an Obsidiman, or if I referred to Simon Andrews from Missions as a T'Skrang, FASA could sue us for infringement, and likely would have to because of the way certain copyright laws work. Heck, despite Simon being an obviuos reference to a T'Skrang, even then we were careful to make sure he looks a little different than the traditional T'Skrang. And he's simply a Changeling now.

*cough* Shantaya's Compass *cough*

[Bull]

*cough* Shantaya's Compass *cough*

Yeah, err... Don't look at me. I'm not sure about that one. I certainly wouldn't have risked it.

Bull

[Wakshaani]

Read The Clutch of Dragons till the end and I withdraw the question about Aina. I think I got it. At least I have a suspicion...
But the other question is, if Celedyr is in Albuquerque, isn't he a bit too close to Sirrurg, who is nesting in/razing the same area?

Not to mention Ghostwalker in Denver.

You'd almost think that tensions were ratching up or something.

Oh wait!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(Edited because I can't read.)