Help With Creation Rules For Setting Adaptation, I don't want to set the world on fire, honey. Options

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So I want to run a Fallout game, and it strikes me that Shadowrun might be good for that kind of thing. Of course, some adaptations are necessary for such a thing, and thus, here is what I have so far:

--No magic.
--Yes hacking, no Matrix, no technomancers. (In other words, hacking ends up being a little bit more like decking. I'm working on this, but it's beside the point of this post.)
--Orks = ghouls and therefore have a ton of Social penalties to offset their awesomeness; trolls = super mutants and have similar penalties.
--No buying starting gear; it'll be awarded. (Very basic armor and an appropriate weapon or computer.)
--Karmagen, because I like karmagen more.

So here's what I need help with:

--Are there good canon Fallout equivalents for elves and dwarves? I want to give players more options, is all.
--How much karma should be offered if no one is buying gear but magic (the traditionally gear-light build) isn't legal?
--In this sort of game, would you feel comfortable relaxing quality restrictions?

[thorya]

Dwarves or elves could be a result of growing in a vault or one of the weird vault experiments.

Is cyber or bio going to be available? Or is everyone mundane? You might want to include a few options to account for this.

Without equipment (i.e. cyber) or magic, probably allow qualities up to 50 BP (100 karma). Include a few based upon the fallout traits. Some ideas (based upon the original traits):

Small frame- +1 agility, -1 strength, 5 BP
Fast Shot- Makes taking a shot a free action rather than a simple action. You can never take aim. 10 BP
Bloody Mess- Not sure what it should do, but it should definitely be a quality.
One Hander- +1 to use one handed weapons, -1 to use two-handed weapons or to attack with two weapons. 5 BP
Jinxed- Everyone has the number of 1's required for a glitched reduced by 1 (including enemies)
Action Boy- Gives you a second initiative pass but does not stack with any other form of initiative enhancement. 15 BP
Cult of Personality- Anytime you would gain notoreity for something you've done, roll an edge test (2), if you succeed it instead increases your Street Cred.
Medic- +1 bonus to first aid and medicine dice pools, 5 BP
Mysterioius Stranger- You can burn edge to have a mysterious stranger arrive to help in your time of need. GM's discretion of what this entails.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Cyber/bio is available--and canon; see Wired Reflexes in Fallout 3 and the implants available in New Vegas--but not at creation. I'm also not really interested in creating new qualities, though I might certainly rename some of the stock ones.

[Neraph]

- I heard of someone allowing magic, but only to ghouls to replicate the effects of radiation and Glowing Ones.
- Matrix tweaking: good.
- Orks should not be ghouls because you have ghouls for ghouls. Trolls as Super Mutants definitely works. You could allow either as playable races but be aware that most of the rest of the setting would KoS ghouls/mutants.
- Awarded gear = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) . What you can do is give everyone like a basic set of gear and then run them through a tutorial-esque starting mission where they can pick up additional gear as loot.
- Karmagen: whatever floats your boat.

- If you want to give your players options don't play Fallout. You cut out major sections of the Matrix rules, practically all of the Magic section, large swathes of the gear section, and limit the races available to basically just humans. Not a whole lot of options there. You could, however, allow players to do AI's with Piloting Origins to simulate Mr. Gutsy/Mr. Handy/Protectron.
- Considering a normal game is 750 and gear is 1 karma per 2.5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , I'd say that maybe 650 points would work.
- I agree with thorya: increasing the Quality list to 50 BP worth would make it better. Also, be concise of what Qualities would be allowed and not; I don't expect SURGE or Dracomorphosis would make the cut, for example.

throya: It depends on which edition of Fallout you're playing, I guess. I wouldn't have One Hander giving a penalty to two-handed or dual-wielding, because as of F3 that was not the case. Also, having to burn Edge for the Mysterious Stranger seems really steep. For Bloody Mess, it could increase the DV of all attacks by 1 or 2 and cost either 10 or 15 BP.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Thanks for the thorough reply, Neraph! Some of these ideas are super-helpful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- I heard of someone allowing magic, but only to ghouls to replicate the effects of radiation and Glowing Ones.

I'm not interested in Glowing One PCs. Also to that end:

- Orks should not be ghouls because you have ghouls for ghouls. Trolls as Super Mutants definitely works. You could allow either as playable races but be aware that most of the rest of the setting would KoS ghouls/mutants.

I'm also not interested in this because 1) dual-natured and 2) Fallout ghouls don't require flesh to survive. As for KoS, that's not true for ghouls in the timeline of the games and I've worked out a way for it to not be true for ALL super-mutants. (This is post-NV; it involves Fawkes and Jacobstown.)

- Awarded gear = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) . What you can do is give everyone like a basic set of gear and then run them through a tutorial-esque starting mission where they can pick up additional gear as loot.

That's actually the plan. So good call. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- If you want to give your players options don't play Fallout. You cut out major sections of the Matrix rules, practically all of the Magic section, large swathes of the gear section, and limit the races available to basically just humans. Not a whole lot of options there. You could, however, allow players to do AI's with Piloting Origins to simulate Mr. Gutsy/Mr. Handy/Protectron.

That's actually the point: Since I'm cutting so much out, I want to leave as much choice as possible.

- Considering a normal game is 750 and gear is 1 karma per 2.5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , I'd say that maybe 650 points would work.

That's what I was thinking too. Anyone else have an opinion?

- I agree with thorya: increasing the Quality list to 50 BP worth would make it better. Also, be concise of what Qualities would be allowed and not; I don't expect SURGE or Dracomorphosis would make the cut, for example.

SURGE does, actually; it's my mutation catch-all. (Though what can be taken with it is going to be very tightly monitored.)

[All4BigGuns]

--No buying starting gear; it'll be awarded. (Very basic armor and an appropriate weapon or computer.)

I consider this a major RED FLAG, and I would sit out the game after hearing this part, as it gives too much control over my character and what equipment he/she has to the GM. There is simply no GOOD reason for this.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

...You... don't know a lot about Fallout, do you?

[phlapjack77]

I consider this a major RED FLAG, and I would sit out the game after hearing this part, as it gives too much control over my character and what equipment he/she has to the GM. There is simply no GOOD reason for this.

Sounds like there is a good reason, being as it's an idea for a game. Stop having fun the wrong way tsuyoshikentsu ! ALL CAPS is srs bizness...

On topic, I like this idea. Of course, the standard low-power ideas should apply, like cyberware should probably be limited to Avail 8 at the start (no alpha?). Definitely relax quality restrictions, for both positive and negative qualities. Maybe some free / reduced cost qualities, like Resistance to Pathogens / Toxins?

[Irion]

I would give some kind of Background traits.
Vault-dweller, Raider, townman, tribal and so on.

Modifing what kind of starting Gear you may buy and skills you may learn. A tribel with Cybernetic implants makes just no sense.

[Lionhearted]

Isn't there psionics in Fallout? Magic could make an adequate stand in... come to think of it, a post apocalypse with magic (or caused by magic) doesn't sound that bad!
If you're deadset on leaving magic out there is probably better settings then SR to use. As you'd have to chop off large parts of the game... Up to you of course.

*dons bullet-proof vest*
Now I remember playing a d20 modern campaign in the Fallout setting. Even though the rules are a bit bland, it translated quite nicely.

[Neraph]

I'm not interested in Glowing One PCs. Also to that end:
I'm also not interested in this because 1) dual-natured and 2) Fallout ghouls don't require flesh to survive. As for KoS, that's not true for ghouls in the timeline of the games and I've worked out a way for it to not be true for ALL super-mutants. (This is post-NV; it involves Fawkes and Jacobstown.)

I did not say glowing ones could be PCs. Dual-Natured ghouls means nothing if no one else has access to magic. As for Dietary Requirement - you can alter that for your game. Ghouls were faster, stronger, and more tough than humans in Fallout and they are in SR also.

Be advised that I've not played NV.

SURGE does, actually; it's my mutation catch-all. (Though what can be taken with it is going to be very tightly monitored.)

In that capacity I guess it would be okay-ish; but yes, you'd have to keep tight control of the options. Which, again, is limiting the players' options.

What you have to keep in mind is that in the Fallout series there's no magic, no wireless matrix, and no metavariants. You have a world of humans that includes mutated humans, known as ghouls and super mutants. That's a constraint of the setting you've chosen - there aren't any other options you can add, save for AI robots.

[Lionhearted]

Chosing a setting doesn't mean you can't expand on it Neraph, unless ofcourse you're looking to publish it later on.

[Neraph]

Right, but saying we're going to play Ghost and the Shell then adding elves and dragons isn't playing Ghost and the Shell.

[Lionhearted]

Clever girl...
GitS with elves and dragons pretty much is SR.
However a setting is more then it's base assumptions. It's about the world it describes, it's about the history of that world, It's the people and places, it's the plots and intrigues. Adding something like magic to Fallout wouldn't make it not Fallout... It would just be Fallout with magic. The wonderful thing about tabletop is that you're not bound by what was set down before you. It's merely there as guidelines. Artistic freedom at it's finest omae.

[Neraph]

Clever girl guy...
GitS with elves and dragons pretty much is SR.
However a setting is more then it's base assumptions. It's about the world it describes, it's about the history of that world, It's the people and places, it's the plots and intrigues. Adding something like magic to Fallout wouldn't make it not Fallout... It would just be Fallout with magic. The wonderful thing about tabletop is that you're not bound by what was set down before you. It's merely there as guidelines. Artistic freedom at it's finest omae.

Fixed it for yah.

I've often described SR as GitS with dragons and magic. That notwithstanding, dramatically altering the content of a subject makes it no longer the same subject. It's like taking water and making coffee or tea - both are still drinks, yes, but you wouldn't call them water, even if the changes are beneficial.

It's even more dramatic when you're talking about established settings. For example, imagine going to a Faerun campaign and as soon as the game starts you take off in your voidship through the stars firing lasers at enemy ships? That's additional content, artistic freedom, in your words, but it is no longer Faerun. Or imagine a Star Wars game that has wizards, spellbooks, scrolls, and no starships or blasters. Again, you're no longer in proverbial Kansas.

[Lionhearted]

If you stay on Toril and explores aspects of Fëarun you would still be playing FR laserguns or not, enough arguing semantics although...

Now if you excuse me, I need to destroy something beautiful...
For Dragonborn, for killing mystra and helm, for destroying the elven pantheon, for the spellplague, for Waterdeep and Silverymoon, for destroying the Zhentarim and the Manshoon clone metaplot, for Thay and Fragging floating islands... Screw Eberron realms...

[Tanegar]

Or imagine a Star Wars game that has wizards, spellbooks, scrolls, and no starships or blasters.

To be fair, Star Wars already has wizards (Force users), spellbooks and scrolls (written by Force users), and numerous primitive planets for characters to get stranded on.

[Neraph]

To be fair, Star Wars already has wizards (Force users), spellbooks and scrolls (written by Force users), and numerous primitive planets for characters to get stranded on.

Not the same in the least. The Force is more akin to psionics than it is to wizardry. You don't see Force users doing somatic and verbal components on their powers (lightning and compulsion notwithstanding). Also, I didn't say they were stranded on a planet, but rather Star Wars with no blasters.

[Tanegar]

There are Force traditions that view the Force as magic, and use incantations in precisely the manner of the "classical" wizard, and my point about primitive planets is that it is completely possible to have a Star Wars game with no blasters or starships.

[Halinn]

Not the same in the least. The Force is more akin to psionics than it is to wizardry. You don't see Force users doing somatic and verbal components on their powers (lightning and compulsion notwithstanding). Also, I didn't say they were stranded on a planet, but rather Star Wars with no blasters.

While verbal generally isn't needed, somatic components seem to be used more often than not. Telekinesis is a good example, aside from the ones you mentioned.

[sk8bcn]

I don't see why using the SR rules instead of a Post-Apo themed game.

Suppress magic, gear (no cyberware/bioware), most hacking (it's way less central in fallout than SR), rigging.

The differences seems so deep that it would be better to pick up something else or build from scratch IMO.

[Lionhearted]

@Neraph
A Jedi derives his powers from an outside force not from the power of his own mind... That's distinctly magic.
Also with many real world occult practices, incantation is optional. (for example Wiccan white magic)

Midichlorian!

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I don't see why using the SR rules instead of a Post-Apo themed game.

Suppress magic, gear (no cyberware/bioware), most hacking (it's way less central in fallout than SR), rigging.

The differences seems so deep that it would be better to pick up something else or build from scratch IMO.

Basically, I like the rules engine. (Dice pools, Edge, character building system.) I also think that the way weapons and armor are handled in SR translates very well to Fallout--especially with NV allowing weapon modifications. The Lifestyle Quality/Safehouse system also makes sense to me in a world where everyone has to scrounge to survive but still has some centers of civilization.

Note also that I'm not removing cyber and bio from the game; I'm just removing access to them at creation. (Barring certain qualities; I'm considering changing Restricted Gear to allow access to them.) The setting makes them very rare, so I want to showcase that.

All of the rules you've mentioned, in other words, are rules I'd classify as setting-dependent. Take them out, and you have a pretty versatile generic modernish game system; that's what I want to use for this game.

[Halinn]

Midichlorian!

I like the theory that they're some kind of bacteria that is attracted to the Force, rather than causing it. Thus the stronger you are with the Force, the more midichlorians your body will sustain. A measurable metric for the strength of Force users, without it being completely stupid.

[Neraph]

@Neraph
A Jedi derives his powers from an outside force not from the power of his own mind... That's distinctly magic.
Also with many real world occult practices, incantation is optional. (for example Wiccan white magic)

Right, but I'm talking about the standard perceptions of things, not the nuts-and-bolts. The standard perception of the Force is that you can will things into being with your mind, although the animating force is an energy field created by everything. The standard perception of wizards (I said wizards, not magic, and even specifically stated spellbooks and scrolls) is that they incant their spells after memorizing them from spellbooks and can even inscribe effects into scrolls that can be used later. Those two things are not the same in the least.

Yes, Force users often use somatic gestures, but thrusting your hand at an object and performing an exact sequence of movements in time to chanting specific syllables are also two very different things.