Help With Creation Rules For Setting Adaptation, I don't want to set the world on fire, honey. Options

[Halinn]

Neraph, I'd suggest branching out beyond D&D wizards for the archetypical wizard. To give examples of other types, Dresden Files wizardry doesn't need anything but will to use (though words help focus, as does a physical movement), and Harry Potter magic can be done wordlessly as well. Both of those are also without spellbooks and scrolls.

[Neraph]

Neraph, I'd suggest branching out beyond D&D wizards for the archetypical wizard. To give examples of other types, Dresden Files wizardry doesn't need anything but will to use (though words help focus, as does a physical movement), and Harry Potter magic can be done wordlessly as well. Both of those are also without spellbooks and scrolls.

Magic in the Eragon series was performed through words. Sorcery in the Belgariad was performed with the Will and the Word. Lord of the Rings has Wizards functioning with magic so subtle that most times you don't even notice it's been used (and no human can use it). In the Riftwar saga, it is used with chants and symbols. In various anime, spellcasting is always done with somatic and verbal components. The Sword of Truth series has wizards performing great feats of power using intent and knowledge.

The Elder Scrolls series has scrolls, staves, and spellbooks. Two-Worlds (it pains me to bring it up...) had spellbooks and scrolls to learn spells. Fable had none of it.

For your examples: the Dresden Files has wizards that need words, foci, and ceremony to solidify and focus their intent in order to control their magic. "In the Harry Potter universe, a wizard can only perform weaker magic without a wand and only a few can control their wandless magic, and in battle taking away a wizard's wand disarms him." Not very good examples of not needing words, motions, or other things to help magic.

Common themes: verbal components, somatic components, spellbooks, and activated magical items (scrolls, wands, or other miscellaneous objects) or foci. The Force, on the other hand, has very few of those. Even fewer when seen through the lens of the 6 movies. You see some hand-waiving and finger-pointing, but very little else.

[Halinn]

You're confusing the normal way of doing things with what is required to do it. The Star Wars universe mostly focuses on the jedi/sith, who have evolved far past primitive force manipulations, but force users who use specific movements and words still exist, and similarly there are powerful magic users in all kinds of literature/games that don't need verbal and/or somatic components. For that matter, take Shadowrun itself. Mages don't need any geasa to throw magic around, but there are mechanical benefits to doing so (in the form of extra build points).

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So... do you guys understand how truly unhelpful this argument is to me? Like, not detrimental except inasmuch as it's distracting from the thread, but this line of questioning has gone long past the point where it's actually useful to the actual game I want to run.

Does 650 Karma seem like a good number to everyone? Only Neraph has weighed in on that so far.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So... do you guys understand how truly unhelpful this argument is to me? Like, not detrimental except inasmuch as it's distracting from the thread, but this line of questioning has gone long past the point where it's actually useful to the actual game I want to run.

Does 650 Karma seem like a good number to everyone? Only Neraph has weighed in on that so far.

Yes, with a lack of equipment buys, 650 Karma will be enough, as long as you are allowing the standard 375 Karma for Stats.

[Neraph]

So... do you guys understand how truly unhelpful this argument is to me? Like, not detrimental except inasmuch as it's distracting from the thread, but this line of questioning has gone long past the point where it's actually useful to the actual game I want to run.

Does 650 Karma seem like a good number to everyone? Only Neraph has weighed in on that so far.

I apologize, I was only trying to make the point that adding things abnormal to a setting is not like playing in that setting. If you add elves and dwarves you'd have to say "We're playing Fallout using Shadowrun rules, but with elves and dwarves." You're not playing Fallout if you add things that are not Fallout into them, just like some of the other examples I've given.

I also think that some of the contention comes into being when arguing the canon of Star Wars. How many writers have there been in that series? I remember reading a book where lightsabres had dials on then that altered the blade length and width, and Luke had a red sabre and Vader's was blue. Not all writers are canon, and not all canon is known to people (how many clones did Palpatine have after all? How old was Boba Fett [in his upper 70's, like the Bounty Hunter book, or in his twenty/thirties, like the movies would indicate?]?)

EDIT: MY brother had an interesting idea: Super Mutant Behemoths having adept powers to replicate how difficult they are to kill and how dangerous they are. Mystic Armor, Improved Senses, Improved Reflexes, Natural Immunity, Pain Resistance, ect.

[Lionhearted]

From my personal experience Tsuyoshi, taking out the matrix, ware and magic from the SR setting makes character progression very bland. You might want to look into ways to amend that. Like raising the skill limit, expanded quality options, adept power like perks earned in gameplay for example? Allowing them to earn mutations simulating bio/nano ware/surge, radio based technomancy?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

That's basically the idea, yeah. Cyber/bio is definitely going to come up in play; if they're common enough to have a street doc selling them in NV, then they're going to be around. Likewise, there are a few "supernatural" perks in-game (especially in FO3); I'm looking at SURGE for that but I'm not married to the idea.

I like your Adept idea, Neraph, though I'm currently thinking I'd probably just build a Behemoth as a critter. I'm not planning to add elves and dwarves unless there's something in the setting that would already equate--but I'm not sure there is, which is why I asked in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

I like your Adept idea, Neraph, though I'm currently thinking I'd probably just build a Behemoth as a critter. I'm not planning to add elves and dwarves unless there's something in the setting that would already equate--but I'm not sure there is, which is why I asked in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ahh... I thought you were looking for justification for adding them. You are familiar with the Fallout wiki, yes? If there's anything obscure in Fallout about elves/dwarves, it'll be there.

[taeksosin]

There's no need to specifically have elves and dwarves. The main thing that's attractive about the two would be their modified stats compared to your standard human. It could be they come from a vault that had genetic modification over the generations via air/water/food additives, direct tampering in the womb (doc giving 'vitamin shots' to the moms) or something similar. That way, you're ending up with faster, better looking humans (elves), or stronger, heartier humans (dwarves) who both happen to have excellent night vision.

I agree that 650 karma is probably a good number to toss out to them, since that extra 100 karma is typically used by folks on spells/gear anyways, yeah? I think providing what would essentially be history qualities based on where their character is from wouldn't be a bad idea. Supers and ghouls, well, they're fairly obvious. A bonus to Survival/starting gear or something. Human from the Enclave? Better with laser weapons, have the option to start with one, free restricted gear for a piece of cyber, etc. Vault dweller? Better social skills perhaps (result of being in a "civilized" environment), healthier in general (+ to one of the physical stats) or something similar. Wastelander? Bonus to resisting radiation, immunity to it in food perhaps, bonus to survival/weaponry skills. I'm sure other DSers can come up with better things than me, but might be nice as a "free" quality that you can give to their players that helps them define their character.

I might have to do something similar for my players once we finish up their current arc. That, or convince one of them to put on their GM hat and run a game for a while. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also, not to de-rail or anything, but does anyone know a good, generic D100 system? Playing with creating a steampunk based game for forum play, and I don't quite feel like reinventing the wheel.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

There's no need to specifically have elves and dwarves. The main thing that's attractive about the two would be their modified stats compared to your standard human. It could be they come from a vault that had genetic modification over the generations via air/water/food additives, direct tampering in the womb (doc giving 'vitamin shots' to the moms) or something similar. That way, you're ending up with faster, better looking humans (elves), or stronger, heartier humans (dwarves) who both happen to have excellent night vision.

Oh, that's SUPER cute.

...

Vault 317: Vault comprised entirely of models. Produced elves.

Vault 4: Vault comprised entirely of miners, equipped with functional brewery. Produced dwarves.

[Neraph]

Oh, that's SUPER cute.

...

Vault 317: Vault comprised entirely of models. Produced elves.

Vault 4: Vault comprised entirely of miners, equipped with functional brewery. Produced dwarves.

See, I'm okay with that, as long as the lifespans and features are still standard human ones. You've gone and found an in-game explanation for introducing a little option, and they're not literal elves and dwarves.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

It also makes sense in Fallout logic. Which is not anywhere near normal logic, but hey, that's part of the charm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[simplexio]

Just an idea: Wastelands are Toxic domains. Super mutants are toxic adepts ( not evil toxics). Players can be adepts or mystic adepts. Places where backround count is near 0 are rare and places which have positive domain are very rare. That would give players good reason to try search places where they could use magic to heal and rest.

[Neraph]

Just an idea: Wastelands are Toxic domains. Super mutants are toxic adepts ( not evil toxics). Players can be adepts or mystic adepts. Places where backround count is near 0 are rare and places which have positive domain are very rare. That would give players good reason to try search places where they could use magic to heal and rest.

Explain some more please. What it sounds like you're saying is that there's almost no 0 or positive BC, which means a net negative for everyone. Keeping with Fallout, most places would be BC 0 and irradiated areas would be BC 1-4, Aspected for Toxic (specifically radiation).

All this talk is making me want to cheat on Skyrim with F3...

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I mean, aside from not wanting magic at all, the radiation rules already use the same levels as Fallout. I don't see a reason to change them.

[Irion]

I also think that some of the contention comes into being when arguing the canon of Star Wars. How many writers have there been in that series? I remember reading a book where lightsabres had dials on then that altered the blade length and width, and Luke had a red sabre and Vader's was blue. Not all writers are canon, and not all canon is known to people (how many clones did Palpatine have after all? How old was Boba Fett [in his upper 70's, like the Bounty Hunter book, or in his twenty/thirties, like the movies would indicate?]?)

A lot of SW Books are so bad, because they try to emulate stuff found in StarTrek or bring up something which just does the same thing as in StarTrek but bigger. Beeing more StarTrek with light sabers than StarWars.

And this is exactly the same problem I see with magic in Fallout. On the first thought it sounds awsome. On the second thought the fallout world lives from the lack of resources. If you have any kind of regenerative resource it kind of beats the point.

I even found it annoying in the game, as soons as I had hundreds of stimpacks and thousands of bullets. The fun is praying for another 10 shots you found in the dumpster in the next room. For another snack not to starve etc.pp.
Having the most awesome weapon but only three shots left, so better make them count, thats Fallout.
So I agree with your: No magic in Fallout perspective.

Explain some more please. What it sounds like you're saying is that there's almost no 0 or positive BC, which means a net negative for everyone. Keeping with Fallout, most places would be BC 0 and irradiated areas would be BC 1-4, Aspected for Toxic (specifically radiation).

Well, I would say fallout in general would be -2. Few things alive and because of those nuclear blasts in the bast. If you find places with a lot of vegitation, as an example take the DLC "Honest hearts" I would but it to 0.

The next issue here is, that the BC rules are kind of silly to begin with. Minus means low on mana, but positiv numbers do not mean more mana but "impressed" mana.
So those too should not be able to cancel each other out. But they also can't exist at the same time by the rules. Fluff wise you could just say, everytime just the higher bonus counts.

[Neraph]

A lot of SW Books are so bad, because they try to emulate stuff found in StarTrek or bring up something which just does the same thing as in StarTrek but bigger. Beeing more StarTrek with light sabers than StarWars.

And this is exactly the same problem I see with magic in Fallout. On the first thought it sounds awsome. On the second thought the fallout world lives from the lack of resources. If you have any kind of regenerative resource it kind of beats the point.

I even found it annoying in the game, as soons as I had hundreds of stimpacks and thousands of bullets. The fun is praying for another 10 shots you found in the dumpster in the next room. For another snack not to starve etc.pp.
Having the most awesome weapon but only three shots left, so better make them count, thats Fallout.
So I agree with your: No magic in Fallout perspective.


Well, I would say fallout in general would be -2. Few things alive and because of those nuclear blasts in the bast. If you find places with a lot of vegitation, as an example take the DLC "Honest hearts" I would but it to 0.

The next issue here is, that the BC rules are kind of silly to begin with. Minus means low on mana, but positiv numbers do not mean more mana but "impressed" mana.
So those too should not be able to cancel each other out. But they also can't exist at the same time by the rules. Fluff wise you could just say, everytime just the higher bonus counts.

1) Magic in Fallout could simply be glowing one ghouls - strange powers by irradiated ghouls. You know, like the ones that regen in radiation or the ones that shoot blasts of radiation at you in F3? It should be restricted to ghouls only (with possibly Super Mutants being able to be adepts to replicate some of their abilities - throwing weapons, harder-than-human skin, ect; and possibly also deathclaws - adepts with Critical Strike and Killing Hands) though.

2) Killing off the biosphere may actually create a positive, aspected BC to Toxic mages only, like how in the books currently it talks about radioactive sludge creating BC for radiation mages (Street Magic, page 121, Domains example). I doubt much life could exist in a "sludge field produced by the runoff from a local chemical company." This would restrict the mana for everyone else while giving a bonus to toxic mages only.

3) If you really like the grittier gameplay either leave most of your stims/ammo at home or play LV on Hardcore. For SR-FO conversion, just ration the amount of supplies you hand out.

[Irion]

@Neraph
1) But that more emulating "natural" effects of fallout with "magic" of shadowrun
2)Like I said, the rules for BC miss a lot. The logical way of doing it would be to have lower mana (liveless, dead) but this mana is "charged" with toxity.
For example: -2 and charged +3.
That would mean that every mage would have to deal with BC 5 and toxic mages would get a bonus of +1.
3)Of course I played LV on hardcore. Thats a must coming form Fallout 1&2+tactics. Still adds up to silly amounts. (Had three storage areas with around 10.000 rounds of ammunition, several dozens weapons hundreds of explosives (granades, rockets, nukes) each.
Enough medical supplies to stock up a hospital and enough "ressources" to start my own repair shop. (Weapon repair kits in the dozens as well)
And lets not talk about food. Having I guess several hundreds of bottles with purified water alone. (But alright that was thanks to the sink and the sunset capaerilla factiory with pack rat)

[Neraph]

@Neraph
1) But that more emulating "natural" effects of fallout with "magic" of shadowrun
2)Like I said, the rules for BC miss a lot. The logical way of doing it would be to have lower mana (liveless, dead) but this mana is "charged" with toxity.
For example: -2 and charged +3.
That would mean that every mage would have to deal with BC 5 and toxic mages would get a bonus of +1.
3)Of course I played LV on hardcore. Thats a must coming form Fallout 1&2+tactics. Still adds up to silly amounts. (Had three storage areas with around 10.000 rounds of ammunition, several dozens weapons hundreds of explosives (granades, rockets, nukes) each.
Enough medical supplies to stock up a hospital and enough "ressources" to start my own repair shop. (Weapon repair kits in the dozens as well)
And lets not talk about food. Having I guess several hundreds of bottles with purified water alone. (But alright that was thanks to the sink and the sunset capaerilla factiory with pack rat)

1) When a glowing one shoots a ray of radiation at me that seems more like "magic" than it does "natural."

2) Looks like someone doesn't remember how BC works at all. You take the highest BC in the area - they don't stack. So in your example of -2 and at the same time +3 (which itself doesn't make a lick of sense) you'd default to the highest - a +3, aspected for Toxic.

3) Fair enough.

EDIT: Look at the example BC in Street Magic, page 121 (which I've referenced twice now) - it clearly lists a toxic sludge field as a R4 toxic domain. Further, the sidebar on the same page lists a nuclear meltdown as a R5 BC - quite the opposite of the mana ebb that you're proposing.