Ally Spirits Options

[apple]

Currently I am thinking about adding an ally spirit to my mage arsenal. So what is your experience with these kind of karma hungry sprits?

1) Do you use them? Or similiar spirits like hired free spirits?

2) When did you summoned them? Immediately with the first karma points? Or later, after x hundred points and initiate grade?

3) How does your mage and your tradition see that ally spirit? Messenger of your personal god? Slave? Equal partner?

4) With how much Karma, powers, skills etc did you build and upgraded your spirit?

5) Did you played your sprit yourself? Or was he played by another player or the game master? How do your co-player see the spirit? As a "character" or just as "somehthing Jones has"?

6) How do you use the spirit? Only to defend or to attack? As a Joker?

7) How did the ally influenced the group? Any problems with game balance?

SYL

[Irion]

1) Not if it can be prevented.
2)Due to the silly rules you want to go high force from the moment you summon them. (Or you pay double...)
3)Depends on the tradition (Shamen friend, hermetic friend or tool(the good old paperclip)
4) Due to the rules you should go up to desired force on the first try. Everything else depends on the Karma you have been awarded.

[Halinn]

3)Depends on the tradition (Shamen friend, hermetic friend or tool(the good old paperclip)

)

Great... now I want to make a Hermetic who has Clippy as an ally spirit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Several of the ones I have seen in our game weigh in at about 70 Karma or so. Saw one that was just over 80.
The one I am working on (if I ever get to go back to that character) is about 60 Karma or so. IIRC, he is a Force 3 Ally Spirit.

[Neraph]

Currently I am thinking about adding an ally spirit to my mage arsenal. So what is your experience with these kind of karma hungry sprits?

1) Do you use them? Or similiar spirits like hired free spirits?

2) When did you summoned them? Immediately with the first karma points? Or later, after x hundred points and initiate grade?

3) How does your mage and your tradition see that ally spirit? Messenger of your personal god? Slave? Equal partner?

4) With how much Karma, powers, skills etc did you build and upgraded your spirit?

5) Did you played your sprit yourself? Or was he played by another player or the game master? How do your co-player see the spirit? As a "character" or just as "somehthing Jones has"?

6) How do you use the spirit? Only to defend or to attack? As a Joker?

7) How did the ally influenced the group? Any problems with game balance?

SYL

1) Have you seen my thread?

2) The sooner you can access them the better.

3) I was a Black Mage, so it was an idealized version of myself that I conjured - kind of like Harry Dresden's Id. The Bloodmourne I made was a subservient tool that I promised more power than it could handle to. I've also had a mundane with a Formula Pact who had the spirit as a contact.

4) The first time around I spent over 100 karma on the ally spirit. Then Running Wild came out and I've been using Calling ever since.

5) Yes. No. Kind of like an Agent. If your GM is going to run every agent, drone, sprite, and spirit, then he can suffer with all the bookkeeping for all I care.

6) Complicated answer. The Blood Lord I built is actually a poor example. Bloodmourne, though, was a tool primarily used as an ace-in-the-hole and passive support, through Guard, Movement, and Concealment.

7) They can potentially become overbalancing. I think game balance all comes down to this, though: are you going to abuse the tools you have given or will you use them when they are required? Knowing when not to steal the spotlight is the biggest thing that can help preserve game balance. For example, I was playing a supremely min/maxed nosferatu mysad with a group, but I chose to play as a support role through maintaining a centralized TacNet and drone support instead of using my 20+ dice for Compulsion and Influence whenever we needed to. Once or twice I did end up using those spirit powers to speed things along, but only when we were on a hard time limit ("Come on, we don't have time for this!") and when the group's established face wasn't getting anywhere.

[Falconer]

Apple, my suggestion to you is to make sure you get him at usable force to start. Also write up a bit about the personality of the spirit and such as well. The spirit is a NPC in it's own right. If you abuse it, it can break free and a free spirit can be a monstrous pain in your side as well. Remember that there is a bit of RP here as appropriate to your tradition.


Force 5-6 is normally good. Remember that once you start going over that spirits start to become very problematic to the GM. Go much lower than that and the spirit is very limited almost to the point of uselessness in what it can do. (at force 12 it'll be rolling 12 dice though for most things it does...)

The single biggest strength of ally spirits is they give you essentially unlimited services.

But at force 6... he'll come with 6 powers you pick from your available tradition spirits basic and optional powers. (not invoked powers). He'll come with a laundry list of basic skills. No spells known. And lacking a lot of skills... some of which are needed to use powers... so you'll need to buy those as well.

You can augment your ally over time by adding more skills and powers to it... but as stated adding more force will be a lot more costly as it'll cost you 16 karma instead of 8 karma per point of force. Though you'll get the extra point of force and a new power to go with it. This is a great way to keep the ally spirit happy though... you slowly increase it's abilities and powers by teaching it new spells and abilities.

Also talk to your GM about how he handles the innate spell power. If he treats it like the critter power it is... then you can sustain up to force critter powers at once with no penalty but it's always cast at the spirits force. If it's handed like a spell, then there's a -2 sustaining penalty on all actions while it's up but the spirit can control it's force like normal. This could make you learn some spells as innate powers instead of spells.

One power which can be a bit problematic is the elemental aura. A spirit which has it, can't turn it off... you may not want a spirit which can't touch anything without burning it up or melting it with acid for example. You can achieve similar results using the elemental aura (innate) spell which can be turned on and off... see above. Or if you do... give the spirit something like the magic hands power or whatever it's called (the one which allows it to move and manipulate tools without touching them).

All spirits are NPC's, generally when it comes to certain things like combat its better I find if the GM runs them... or if you send the spirit off to do a remote task. But otherwise generally works smoothly if you handle it.

[Neraph]

Falconer is correct on most points. I think there's a strong argument that the Innate Spell is handled as a critter power (I mean, it is a critter power), and I know of no GM that handles it as a cast spell. As far as I know, it is variable, like a cast spell, but cannot be overcast.

[Falconer]

Just looked at SR4a... yeah it doesn't mention force... I'm too lazy to look at the last printing to see if they changed it. For some reason i have that nugget in my head so it might be part of the prior edition. (nix that.. had SR1 through 3 core rulebooks sitting on coffee table... SR3 it was cast at a single force; so that's just flawed recall on my part based on the old editions).


But this is a grey area in the rules. The power says it's exactly like spells cast by a mage (which can be read to include sustaining penalties). So you have a power which is potentially either considered a critter power generally... or whose specific text as a critter power subjects it to the normal spellcasting sustaining rules.

I've seen it played either way as per GM's preference. So ask. I only bring it up because either way requires paying to teach the spirit the spellcasting skill, but it changes how sustained spells are handled if they're innate spells vs normal ones. And it makes your spell and power picks a lot more meaningful. (remember learning extra powers only costs a little more than learning new spells... and any innate spell you'd have to know yourself. while the spirit can learn spells normally you don't know for higher karma cost as well).


Oh one last trick... realistic form... use it! Think hard and long if you want an ally spirit with your own form as realistic form if it breaks free... but this has uses. It's also cheap to add extra realistic forms to an ally. Nothing stops you from paying a little karma so it can appear as a sword in your hand, or a motorbike... Or from giving it multiple realistic forms... (doesn't change it's physical stats... but useful in it's own right).

[Neraph]

I think in the errata it mentions Innate Spell not being able to be overcast.

[Jaid]

)

Great... now I want to make a Hermetic who has Clippy as an ally spirit.

well, that's easily cured. just go find a computer that has clippy on it, and use that for a while. and remember that while he may cause you to wish you could light him on fire, in a group of shadowrunners there's a non-zero chance that wishing they could light it on fire will very quickly turn to actually lighting it on fire (particularly since you know that you're going to be a mage, and that you'll be interacting with "Clippy" more than anyone else...)

[Neraph]

"Hi there! It seems you're trying to cast a ritual spell! Here are my suggestions: A) Make sure the mana alignments are favorable to yourself. B) Don't forget to properly ward the area! C) Always remember to wear clean socks!"

[pbangarth]

Falconer is correct on most points. I think there's a strong argument that the Innate Spell is handled as a critter power (I mean, it is a critter power), and I know of no GM that handles it as a cast spell. As far as I know, it is variable, like a cast spell, but cannot be overcast.

I and my groups have always played Innate Spell as a power which allows the casting of a spell which carries with it the -2 penalty. Casting the spell requires the Spellcasting skill. The spell can be Counterpelled. The spell causes Drain. It has all the attributes of a normal spell.

[Irion]

And an other free spirit character is born...


@pbangarth

I and my groups have always played Innate Spell as a power which allows the casting of a spell which carries with it the -2 penalty. Casting the spell requires the Spellcasting skill. The spell can be Counterpelled. The spell causes Drain. It has all the attributes of a normal spell.

Which is the only sane thing to do... But RAW I think Neraph and Falconer are right.

@Falconer

Oh one last trick... realistic form... use it! Think hard and long if you want an ally spirit with your own form as realistic form if it breaks free... but this has uses. It's also cheap to add extra realistic forms to an ally. Nothing stops you from paying a little karma so it can appear as a sword in your hand, or a motorbike... Or from giving it multiple realistic forms... (doesn't change it's physical stats... but useful in it's own right).

Thats one of the major questions regarding the realistic form. What are physical stats. Because if you turn your ally spirit in a sword, whats the damage code? Strength/2 stun?

[Halinn]

Because if you turn your ally spirit in a sword, whats the damage code? Strength/2 stun?

With realistic form? Precisely what a regular sword would do. RAW, any Energy Aura would not trigger on attacks, but on its own initiative, it could make attacks on its own (probably stuff like elemental attacks, because shooting lightning or whatever out of your sword is pretty cool)

[Lionhearted]

C) Always remember to wear clean socks!"

That sounds like Goofy's school of magic, he's perfected a ritual for ever-clean socks (Now that's obscure!)

[Falconer]

Irion:
If you didn't notice... I was very careful to use neutral wording, because I was not advocating for either interpretation of innate spell. When rules are grey like that, I like to point out both readings to people and let them make up their own minds.

As far as realistic form... if the spirit materializes as a sword... then yes it functions as a sword. The spirit can't wield itself though... the drawback to taking a form which can't move on it's own. And yes... nothing stopping the spirit from using elemental attack and similar ranged powers or spells while it's materilized like this either. Or it could be a buffing sword and start casting buffs on the wielder like combat sense, increase strength, increase agility... etc. Not like sustaining penalty is going to hurt it when someone else is swinging it.

[Irion]

@Falconer
Well, I do not know about the sword.
Because if you follow that thought pattern for a minute, the spirit could also transform into a knight wielding a sword.
What stats would the spirit have now?

[apple]

First thanks @all for the replies. It was/is very helpful.

Regarding the last issue (realistic form and movement): I do not agree - even with realistic form it is an materialized spirit (and each materliazed spirit can fly/move for example, even as earth sprits). I suppose the restriction in the ally spirit rule counts for inhabitation spirits where indeed the sprit is restricted by the physical body (and where an inhabitation ally spirit bound to a car could not fly.

Regarding the damage of the form: I don´t think it would count as a sword - because it is just a materialized body of a spirit (very real and convincing looking) and would at best counts as improvised weapon (metahuman). Same goes for the "car/bike"form - its just a very real and convincing looking vehicle, but still a spirit with a materialized spirit body. The realistic form is more or less just for show - every stat is indeed still a spirit stat.

For inhabitation/possession you are right of course.

SYL

[Falconer]

Please actually read the Realistic Form power on p102 street magic. Then comment.

"A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the objects normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread (though it would have no matrix link, making it an antique toaster)."

EG: if you materialize using realistic form as a sword... you are for all purposes a sword. My take on that though is also... that you'd need to have someone else wield you since a sword can't move itself and lacks joints and articulation. Though you might also get away with using Psychokinesis/Magic Fingers to the same ends (str & agi equal to hits on your power check... then use skills using that as your agility/strength with a -2 penalty for lack of fine control).

As far as your counter-argument. If you spend for a realistic form as a 'tool' you function as that tool as appropriate. However, if your normal spirit form includes a sword it's just for show, because that is not part of your realistic form. And if your realistic form is someone wielding a sword... you're realistic form isn't as a 'tool' it's as someone who appears to be wielding a tool... so you don't get the added functionality of actually being a weapon. (hence why I make a clear distinction for something else wielding you... and limit mobility of the realistic form...).

Realistic forms still have their normal non-realistic spirit forms as well they can use normally. Nothing stops them from dematerializing travelling astrally and rematerializing elsewhere either.


As far as the bike example goes... okay look at the materialized spirits walk/run speeds compare them to the values of an actual bike... they're almost identical... why not just consider it to be a bike with the appropriate movement speed.0 Top speed... okay... use movement power... who's going to know the difference?

People forget that this is a GM arbitrated game. Provided the stats are close... and you accept appropriate limitations or buy additional appropriate powers like psychokinesis or movement... how many GM's are going to have a problem with your spirit showing up as a realistic tricked out Harley or animated sword?

[Neraph]

I and my groups have always played Innate Spell as a power which allows the casting of a spell which carries with it the -2 penalty. Casting the spell requires the Spellcasting skill. The spell can be Counterpelled. The spell causes Drain. It has all the attributes of a normal spell.

It does have all the standard attributes of a normal spell except the fact that it originates as a Critter Power and not a cast spell. Therefore the effects of sustaining it should default to Critter Power rules (since that's what created the effect) and not Spellcasting rules. Remember, all the effects of a normal spell were granted by express detail of the Critter Power in the first place. Since the effects of sustaining were not expressly stated to reference standard spellcasting, you must (in my opinion) default to the Critter Power rules for sustaining. We know Innate Spell is not exactly like standard spellcasting because critters can resist it with Intuition or Charisma; not with Willpower, as they would with a real spell.

[Falconer]

Neraph... a CONCLUSIVE argument either way cannot be made. That was my point... why I told him to TALK to his GM and find out how he reads this. It's not a matter of 'you must' but a question of how the GM reads the specifics of the text... remember specific power texts override general rules if they're in conflict. Arguing it here simply derails the thread and consists on you getting on your soapbox to put out your view... one which cannot be proven to be correct or incorrect.


The RAW and RAI is silent on this matter of exactly how far "Innate Spells cast by a critter are the same as those cast by magicians". If it extends to sustaining penalties or not... Your argument is just as valid as the GM stating... it's the same as a sustained spell cast by a mage so take the -2 sustaining penalty. Why? Because the power specifically says it's the same as a spell cast by a magician... the specifics of this power would override the general that a critter can sustain a number of powers equal to it's magic score without penalty (and no more than that).

Personally I prefer that it's handled as a critter power... spirits don't have sustaining foci, quickening, and similar tricks. So it provides a mean for them to cast spells on themselves or others without getting penalized too much. But spirits are also rediculously powerful at higher forces... so they don't really need it. But it's not overly problematic to do it either way as the GM sees fit (and I've played it both ways as a player).

[Neraph]

I understand where you were coming from, I was simply attempting to put out the most solid (and hopefully succinct - remember the 10+ pages of Critter Form?) arguments I could in favor of the one side. I'm done with it now. Promise. Probably.

Please actually read the Realistic Form power on p102 street magic. Then comment.

"A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the objects normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread (though it would have no matrix link, making it an antique toaster)."

EG: if you materialize using realistic form as a sword... you are for all purposes a sword. My take on that though is also... that you'd need to have someone else wield you since a sword can't move itself and lacks joints and articulation. Though you might also get away with using Psychokinesis/Magic Fingers to the same ends (str & agi equal to hits on your power check... then use skills using that as your agility/strength with a -2 penalty for lack of fine control).

As far as your counter-argument. If you spend for a realistic form as a 'tool' you function as that tool as appropriate. However, if your normal spirit form includes a sword it's just for show, because that is not part of your realistic form. And if your realistic form is someone wielding a sword... you're realistic form isn't as a 'tool' it's as someone who appears to be wielding a tool... so you don't get the added functionality of actually being a weapon. (hence why I make a clear distinction for something else wielding you... and limit mobility of the realistic form...).

Realistic forms still have their normal non-realistic spirit forms as well they can use normally. Nothing stops them from dematerializing travelling astrally and rematerializing elsewhere either.

Exactly correct. Please also note that Realistic Form and Mutable Form enhance the abilities of Materialization, so if your spirit wanted to turn from sword to spirit again (or change forms) it would have to de-rezz then re-materialize.

[apple]

Please actually read the Realistic Form power on p102 street magic. Then comment.

I do.

Please do the same.

"A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the objects normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread (though it would have no matrix link, making it an antique toaster)."

See the bold part. The spirit *mimics* it. It does *not* become that item, but it mimicis basic funtions, looks, characteristics, so that it can pass as such an item/creature. It does not say that the realistic form is loosing the basic abilities of (materialized) spirits (otherwise: loose Immunity to normal weapons etc). This is IMHO a major difference.

who's going to know the difference?

No one (but only if you use the movement power). If you take the form of a small rocket you are still bound bei your spirit speed + moevement power and not by the rocket speed.

SYL

[Halinn]

The basic function of a sword, and the defining characteristic is doing damage, in SR defined as reach 1, str/2+3. Mimicing a sword would logically include taking on the basic function and defining characteristic, to the extent that doing this does not go against any limits otherwise imposed on a spirit (i.e. no matrix access, speed limit, and the fact that it being a realistic form likely also means you can't "break character" and perform a melee attack without a wielder).

[apple]

So what about the materialized spirit in airplane form? Or the spirit in Knight with a sword form? What you describe is more or less the function of a vessel for possession / inhabitation spirits.

Lets take a look to all the rules which govern materialized spirits

Spirit Forms and Combat
Spirits materialize in all manner of forms, including those equipped with weapons such as swords or claws. Th ese “weapons” are (obviously) part of the spirit’s materialized form, however, and do not provide any extra bonuses. A guardian spirit who materializes with a sword in hand, for example, does not gain any benefi ts of a sword’s Reach, nor does the sword deal any more damage than the spirit’s materialized fi st.

Its very clear: a spirit can look like anything it wants (and fits the them of course) but there is no change in function: you are a spirit, strength / 2 in melee combat, 3D movement ability for all materialized spirits (as defined in the basic book) dual natured, improved natural armor when materialized etc. I hope that there is no misunderstanding or contradiction in that.

SPOTTING SPIRITS
The spiritual nature of any materialized spirit form is unmistakable. Even if the spirit materializes looking like a toaster or a Lone Star officer, any sentient observer will have no difficulty understanding that they are observing something unnatural.
...
While a materialized spirit can’t be mistaken for a material creature or object, it can look like almost anything, depending upo n the tradition responsible for its onjuration (though a particular spirit will have only one materialized form—it will not change forms). Considering that literally hundreds of magical traditions are practiced worldwide, the sky’s the limit. If you’re stuck coming up with a snazzy and distinctive look to represent a particular spirit in your game, here are some examples:

That should be clear as well: materialized spirits are immediately visible as such entities under normal conditions.

Now, lets go to the Realistic Form power

Realistic Form
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Special
A spirit with Realistic Form can be mistaken for a normal physical creature or object when it materializes, or it appears unremarkable when joined to a vessel. A spirit that appears as a metahuman would have a heartbeat and a regular breathing rate. A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object’s normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread (though it would have no Matrix link, making it an antique toaster). Th e spirit is in no way disguised from the astral plane, but to physical observation appears to any senses to be a natural part of the physical world. Note that spirits with the Materialization power normally only have one materialized form. Materializing spirits with this power can choose to appear using Realistic Form or their normal materialized form. A fi re elemental can still appear as a column of angry f ames, but might also be able to appear as a beautiful woman.

Now it depends on how we define "mimics. Lets take Falconers route for second: the sword spirit looses the physical ability to move. It receives the ability to do sword damage with reach 1. Out of nowhere you take away the the physical ability to move, by defining that the spirit is *limited* to the function of his form. Ok, so a sword cannot move. Can it rust? What about "Immunity to normal weapons"? Because that is a physical power as well, depending on the materialized form of the spirit, exactly as the 3D movement.

So, following your own argumentation the spirit looses the immunity to normal weapons because immunity to normal weapons is definitely not a part of the normal functionality of a sword (after all, it´s just a piece of sharp metal, nothing more).

Lets go back to the first rule paragraph: a spirit in human form does breath and have a heartbeat. As per your definition the spirit is limited by the physical traits of the body. Can it suffocate (after all, suffocation is part of the normal human body if no breathable air is available). What about bloodloss? And of our Immunity/weapons (after all, no human is bulletproof). Is it hungry? Can it die/be disrupted by not eating (after all, eating is one of the most basic functionality of the human body). Would a spirit car be able to run 200mpoh on its own (without movement power). Could a van-spirit transport 2000kg? Can a female human-spirit become pregnant (which is the most basic function of the human body beside sleep and eating)?

If you go this route, please be consequent and accept ALL physical functionality and limitations of the realistic form of a materialized spirit. Not simply: "you loose movement, but everything else stays the same". That would be inconsequential.

For my part, as per rules: the materialized spirit is exactly that: a materialized spirit, easily visible as such, with all the powers. If he has the realistic form power, he appears are real - but is still in every way a materialized spirit with all advantages and disadvantages (in our case: no specific form depending damage but the general spirit damage in close combat, immunity/weapons, 3d movement etc). There is NO single sentence, that the rules stated above are invalid when the realistic form is activated. Only that you get additional abilities to stay "undercover" with performing minor tricks.

And still of course: thanks for all the points discussed above.

SYL