Ally Spirits Options

[Neraph]

[ Spoiler ]

So what about the materialized spirit in airplane form? Or the spirit in Knight with a sword form? What you describe is more or less the function of a vessel for possession / inhabitation spirits.

Lets take a look to all the rules which govern materialized spirits



Its very clear: a spirit can look like anything it wants (and fits the them of course) but there is no change in function: you are a spirit, strength / 2 in melee combat, 3D movement ability for all materialized spirits (as defined in the basic book) dual natured, improved natural armor when materialized etc. I hope that there is no misunderstanding or contradiction in that.



That should be clear as well: materialized spirits are immediately visible as such entities under normal conditions.

Now, lets go to the Realistic Form power


Now it depends on how we define "mimics. Lets take Falconers route for second: the sword spirit looses the physical ability to move. It receives the ability to do sword damage with reach 1. Out of nowhere you take away the the physical ability to move, by defining that the spirit is *limited* to the function of his form. Ok, so a sword cannot move. Can it rust? What about "Immunity to normal weapons"? Because that is a physical power as well, depending on the materialized form of the spirit, exactly as the 3D movement.

So, following your own argumentation the spirit looses the immunity to normal weapons because immunity to normal weapons is definitely not a part of the normal functionality of a sword (after all, it´s just a piece of sharp metal, nothing more).

Lets go back to the first rule paragraph: a spirit in human form does breath and have a heartbeat. As per your definition the spirit is limited by the physical traits of the body. Can it suffocate (after all, suffocation is part of the normal human body if no breathable air is available). What about bloodloss? And of our Immunity/weapons (after all, no human is bulletproof). Is it hungry? Can it die/be disrupted by not eating (after all, eating is one of the most basic functionality of the human body). Would a spirit car be able to run 200mpoh on its own (without movement power). Could a van-spirit transport 2000kg? Can a female human-spirit become pregnant (which is the most basic function of the human body beside sleep and eating)?

If you go this route, please be consequent and accept ALL physical functionality and limitations of the realistic form of a materialized spirit. Not simply: "you loose movement, but everything else stays the same". That would be inconsequential.

For my part, as per rules: the materialized spirit is exactly that: a materialized spirit, easily visible as such, with all the powers. If he has the realistic form power, he appears are real - but is still in every way a materialized spirit with all advantages and disadvantages (in our case: no specific form depending damage but the general spirit damage in close combat, immunity/weapons, 3d movement etc). There is NO single sentence, that the rules stated above are invalid when the realistic form is activated. Only that you get additional abilities to stay "undercover" with performing minor tricks.

And still of course: thanks for all the points discussed above.

SYL

Can a normal spirit be plugged into a wall and toast toast? Obviously not. Therefore the word "mimic" means to simulate, to copy, or to imitate. Clearly that means the Realistic Form of a sword gets all of the functionality of a sword.

Realistic Form is a net gain and never any loss.

[Falconer]

Actually my line of thinking was... if a normal character tried to make toast by stuffing it in him, putting his fingers in the socket....

1. he'd get electrocuted from sticking his hand into the wall sockets. (call it 10s(e) damage for the AC mains)
2. assuming he did manage to heat himself up hot enough to toast things... he's taking fire damage.
3. Spirits are not immune to electrical or fire damage either. So why is it the toaster functions fine and toasts... nothing in the power gives resistance or immunity to those things either.


Apple... though i see your argument as well. It was one i struggled with as well. It all depends on whether you consider it to functionally mimics or only cosmetically mimics. The problem I feel is the example makes it clear that it functionally mimics, and this overrides the 'cosmetic' bits of the actual materialization power... as I made clear materializing with a sword in hand is completely different than having a realistic form which is a sword and only a sword.

For example... I'm not against the sword moving on it's own as a normal spirit... but I don't believe the spirit can 'wield' itself by moving itself... yeah it can try and ram things with itself.. but it won't do any more than it's normal unarmed damage by doing so. So the sword doesn't function for the spirit flying on it's own... it only mimics and functions as a sword for something real holding and using it. I just feel as part of realistic form you accept the mundane movement capabilities. Though this is more of a feel thing... I agree there isn't much RAW support for it. But in my example of movement... I said a bike and a spirit have roughly the same movement speeds... so there shouldn't be an issue with using the bikes movement speeds (especially if the movement power can be used). I never once brought up a rocket as good example... you did then acted as if I suggested it. Similarly... nothing in the rules says you can't materialize the spirit as a massive 1000' long freighter either... not that i suggest it because that's seems pretty clearly a stupid extreme go to as well (I even consider a car getting a bit on the big side... a motorbike not really... car you're getting a bit extreme).

That said... similar good alternate realistic forms are things like rats, cats, dogs, bats, crows, seagull... etc. small innocuous animals that people won't question if they see.

[Irion]

I am with apple on this one. Mimic means mimic. If you do not have the possibility to achiev said effect, then you don't.
So if the spirits immunity to normal weapons is high enough to withstand beeing electrocuted, he can mimic beeing a toaster and toast bread. If he isn't well the bread gets toasted and the spirit disrupted.

[apple]

Can a normal spirit be plugged into a wall and toast toast?

No, of course not - this is the gadget power of realistic form (just like heartbeat etc). But it does not mean that you become a toaster and has the limitations and restrictions of a toaster. As you said: never a loss, always a gain.

@Falconer

I agree it really depends on the definition of "mimics". However combined with the normal rules for materialized spirits and the open questions I cannot really see that the materialized spirit rules taps into the possession/inhabitation part. After all it would open a new round of questions (carrying capacity of a van-spirit? Speed of a rocket-spirit? Can it act as a submarine for several people in yellow submarine-form? etc) which are easily solved if you stick very close to "its only a spirit and everything is just cosmeetic/gadget/trick/illusion".

And yes, of course I am getting a little bit extreme for the examples. You have to admit, however, there would be quite some players, even on this forum, which would immediately think "wait, realistic form works that way? Cool, I immediately get my small airplane/battlemech/submarine/speedboad-Batman-Spirit). And yes, as long as Mr Hardy does not make a clear ruling we will not find common ground, I am afraid. So, everyone goes his own way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

btw: current plans are a for the realistic form is a female body, a flying carpet, a pen, a cat and an exact copy of the summoning mage

SYL

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually my line of thinking was... if a normal character tried to make toast by stuffing it in him, putting his fingers in the socket....

1. he'd get electrocuted from sticking his hand into the wall sockets. (call it 10s(e) damage for the AC mains)
2. assuming he did manage to heat himself up hot enough to toast things... he's taking fire damage.
3. Spirits are not immune to electrical or fire damage either. So why is it the toaster functions fine and toasts... nothing in the power gives resistance or immunity to those things either.


Apple... though i see your argument as well. It was one i struggled with as well. It all depends on whether you consider it to functionally mimics or only cosmetically mimics. The problem I feel is the example makes it clear that it functionally mimics, and this overrides the 'cosmetic' bits of the actual materialization power... as I made clear materializing with a sword in hand is completely different than having a realistic form which is a sword and only a sword.

For example... I'm not against the sword moving on it's own as a normal spirit... but I don't believe the spirit can 'wield' itself by moving itself... yeah it can try and ram things with itself.. but it won't do any more than it's normal unarmed damage by doing so. So the sword doesn't function for the spirit flying on it's own... it only mimics and functions as a sword for something real holding and using it. I just feel as part of realistic form you accept the mundane movement capabilities. Though this is more of a feel thing... I agree there isn't much RAW support for it. But in my example of movement... I said a bike and a spirit have roughly the same movement speeds... so there shouldn't be an issue with using the bikes movement speeds (especially if the movement power can be used). I never once brought up a rocket as good example... you did then acted as if I suggested it. Similarly... nothing in the rules says you can't materialize the spirit as a massive 1000' long freighter either... not that i suggest it because that's seems pretty clearly a stupid extreme go to as well (I even consider a car getting a bit on the big side... a motorbike not really... car you're getting a bit extreme).

That said... similar good alternate realistic forms are things like rats, cats, dogs, bats, crows, seagull... etc. small innocuous animals that people won't question if they see.

Except that there is at least one exaple of an Ally Spirit that has a realistic form that is failry large, in the form of a Yacht. Of course, that particular spirit was pretty powerful, but it is obviously something that can be rationalized.

In case you are wondering, it is in Wolf and Raven (the Novel)...

[Lionhearted]

Btw: current plans are a for the realistic form is a female body, a flying carpet, a pen, a cat and an exact copy of the summoning mage

SYL

I was wondering how long it would take until someone brought that up... Well, guess it wouldn't be an ally spirit thread without it... or is it just me having a dirty mind?

[apple]

Not really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I mean, lets be honest: the majority of of non religious NPC-summoned ally spirits will be sexbots. And for the copy: well, the char is a runner, so having the possibility to summon an exact copy of himself visible to everyone ("Yes, officer I was in that restaurant during the murder time, check the camera feed!") is invaluable.

SYL

[Neraph]

I mean, lets be honest: the majority of of non religious NPC-summoned ally spirits will be sexbots.

Religion is not the same as Tradition. A hermetic tradition mage would be considered disturbed if he wanted to have sex with an elemental, as would a shaman or any number of other traditions.

Granted, we're talking about the guttertrash of the world, but still, I don't think the majority of ally spirits would be viewed as a piece of astral assensing.

[apple]

Granted, we're talking about the guttertrash of the world, but still, I don't think the majority of ally spirits would be viewed as a piece of astral assensing.

You have far more faith in humanity now and in the future, as it seems. ^^

SYL

[Neraph]

Not really, I'm just not so jaded that I think the majority of people will try to.. shall we say, make a credstick transfer with everything remotely humanoid they ever see.

[Lionhearted]

In the future, rule 34 still exist.
In the future you can live out rule 34 through full immersive VR and magic.
Given how much study magic requires... Magi is bound to get lonely aswell.

[Neraph]

Right, but that same mage still has access to the 'trix through DNI trodes. BTLs are easier to get a hold of than an Ally spirit.

[Irion]

Let's not forget the spirit has probably more dice on social tests than a hermetic mage....

Now the question would be what kind of personality the spirit will develop. Nobody would fuck Clippy the Paperclip, I hope.
But if this thing gets too human with charisma 8+, since we are all powergamers...

[apple]

Now the question would be what kind of personality the spirit will develop. Nobody would fuck Clippy the Paperclip, I hope.

After performing my first investigation of sexual harassment: I assure you, that there is a sexual preference for *everything*.

Unfortunately.

*sigh*

SYL

[Lionhearted]

We are of the internets.
What we have seen cannot been unseen.
Hear the rules of the internets for they are the truth!
Rule 34: If it exists, there is porn of it.
Rule 35: If there is no porn of it yet, there will be.

[Halinn]

After performing my first investigation of sexual harassment: I assure you, that there is a sexual preference for *everything*.

Unfortunately.

*sigh*

SYL

I could link you some Clippy rule 34, but it would be against Dumpshock's TOS.

[darthmord]

We are of the internets.
What we have seen cannot been unseen.
Hear the rules of the internets for they are the truth!
Rule 34: If it exists, there is porn of it.
Rule 35: If there is no porn of it yet, there will be.

Given that Rules 34 & 35 are about porn, I have to wonder (with great trepidation) about the 33 rules that come before them...

[Lionhearted]

It varies rule 34 is one of the few the internet agrees on.
in one iteration rule 1&2 is do not take about /b, in another rule 1-32 are rules you do not talk about.
The other rule the internet agrees upon is rule 46 ... or 64, can't recall on the top of my head. The rule is: Any male character is bound to have a female counterpart and vice versa.

[Halinn]

The other rule the internet agrees upon is rule 46 ... or 64, can't recall on the top of my head. The rule is: Any male character is bound to have a female counterpart and vice versa.

63.
Know your meme has a page on the rules: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/rules-of-the-internet

[Critias]

Now the question would be what kind of personality the spirit will develop. Nobody would fuck Clippy the Paperclip, I hope.

Maybe not. But Grimmy the Grimoire?

Man, that is one sexy book.

[Irion]

Objectophilia, cutting costs on divorces the easy way.

[Jaid]

well, whatever you do, don't forget to dikote first ^^