[X] My Assistant

[All4BigGuns]

Patrick... unfortunately jmhardy's actions have done nothing whatsoever to disprove this notion only encourage it. Actions do speak louder than words. Look at all the books WITH FINISHED ERRATA which don't have it up and available on the website. How many books got reprinted without the errata included. You can't argue with those facts. Statements of fact are not personal attacks, divining the man's motives for it is a matter of opinion because as best I can recall he's never gone on the record for the decision why.

My own take is he was handed a bad hand with the financial issues... and a decision was made to focus on creating new product and selling it. Maintenance of old product is a cost center to a game company while new stuff brings money into the coffers. The problem is that occassional and good errata comes down to a basic issue of quality control.

Also you ignore that he IS the line developer. He IS a public figure. He has done little to nothing to put forth his own views in the public forum. Synner at least made regular attempts to reach out to the community and communicate with them in an interactive manner on these forums and others. While you as a freelancer may have regular interactions with him... the rest of the community at large does not. If that's your bar for a 'personal attack' then you have it set WAY too low.



All4Big you have no idea what you're talking about here. Then again you always keep yelling about ignoring the rules anyhow because characters should be handled with kid gloves. And it's not fun to have to play by rules. So what do you care if rules are maintained and amended. You're just out to play calvinball anyhow.

Waahhhh! Where's my errata?! Waahhhh!

Consider it an attack if you want, I don't give a crap, but if you do, it's quid pro quo.

[Stahlseele]

We Germans GOT the Errata.
It's there, CGL just ain't using it.

[Falconer]

Because I'm not attacking people and assigning infantile motives to them. You're simply making ad hominems All4Big. That's why. You're doing nothing more than babyish name calling.

I can point out a long history of your posts where you always state to ignore the rules.

If you have a point to make, make it... otherwise you're simply being a troll and acting to inflame and inhibit any kind of civil discourse.

[All4BigGuns]

Because I'm not attacking people and assigning infantile motives to them. You're simply making ad hominems All4Big. That's why. You're doing nothing more than babyish name calling.

I can point out a long history of your posts where you always state to ignore the rules.

If you have a point to make, make it... otherwise you're simply being a troll and acting to inflame and inhibit any kind of civil discourse.

No, I look at what's actually fun, unlike certain people who rules lawyer their way into whatever is the most restrictive on the players to screw them over.

As to the rest, it really does sound a lot like whining, and things don't get bad until YOU poke your nose into something.

[bannockburn]

No. I just report you, instead of feeding you.
Remember: YOUR fun is different from other people's fun. Which has been proven by the general comments your ideas get. Good night.

[Stahlseele]

No, I look at what's actually fun, unlike certain people who rules lawyer their way into whatever is the most restrictive on the players to screw them over.

As to the rest, it really does sound a lot like whining, and things don't get bad until YOU poke your nose into something.

oh the irony . .

[All4BigGuns]

Question is, why do ya'll even bother? Obviously you hate the company and the game or you wouldn't whine and complain so much about every little thing.

[Stahlseele]

Question is, why do you even bother? Obviously you love the company and the game and nothing else matters or you would not react like that about every little complaint.

[All4BigGuns]

Question is, why do you even bother? Obviously you love the company and the game and nothing else matters or you would not react like that about every little complaint.

The company, I could give a crap less one way or another, it's just another business, but yeah, I love the game and think things are plenty good as-is (with one exception as I mentioned and that's that the Matrix could use simplification).

[Patrick Goodman]

Well, I know he was sitting on errata that were formulated for years ... and then didn't release them with a new print run of the books. Also, before Hardy's tenure, some Errata were released. After his stepping up, nothing happened. This looks pretty bad to me. But yeah, maybe he did not de-errata the books deliberately. But it remains at least negligence and a bad way to treat the fan base Shadowrun depends on to sell stuff.

Don't get me wrong. It frustrates the bejesus out of me. That doesn't, to my way of thinking, make your characterization any less unfair. I might have come on a little strong with my initial statement, though, and if I did so, I apologize.

And the errors keep cropping up. And the errata keep being suppressed. And the table of contents remain unclickable in pdfs. So yeah, I'll stay with my opinion that these are failures that should be handled by a competent editor. Because that's part of the job description.

There's significantly more than you seem to think that goes on here. But you're entited to your opinion. Even if I believe it to be wrong.

What have the old, more detailed tables of content done to whoever lays out the files, anyway?

You'd have to ask Matt; that one I've got no answer for.

[DireRadiant]

Edition comparison and discussion are always flammable topics. Please be considerate and contribute to the discussion.

[bannockburn]

Yes, it is an opinion. Unfortunately it is one that many people share and nothing is done to rectify it. No communication. No doing better in the next book. You see how that looks, I guess.
I am not saying the man is a monster or even a bad person, but to someone who only sees the obvious and not all the significant things going on, it is - IMO - a valid thing to say "The product quality is lacking and it seems to be the fault of the editor."
I have seen the German products coming late, and at the time was frequently talking to Frank Werschke. There was criticism of course, even after he communicated, but it was easier to swallow on that basis alone. There is no communication to be seen, and results are also not forthcoming.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Doesn't matter. They have milked it too often for my money- literally.

Indeed... My viewpoint exactly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DnDer]

I know a lot of people have mentioned issues with the editing of the books.

A lot of us, judging from some of the other posts on DS, seem to be professional, working adults. Have any of the professional, working adults made an application to our dear publisher to offer their editing skills? In light of the response to my comment about open betas, I have to admit that there are few ways more productive to improving a gaming community than having the opportunity for a community member to be able to directly improve on the game they love.

(I still think the open beta that WotC is running is being done very poorly, and will hurt everyone who plays that game, in the end.)

If no one has made the offer, I would like to ask - shamelessly - if there's room on the team for even an assistant copy editor, and to which address should I submit a resume.

[Stahlseele]

Uhm, do you remember why we have such a low opinion of CGL in general and certain people there in special?

[Fatum]

My two kopecks on 5e: on the one hand, I like that the issues they're planning to address are the ones I've encountered; on the other hand, judging by the quality of products (and especially mechanics in them) that CGL has been putting up lately, I don't believe they will be able to address them in any kind of satisfying manner.

If the new edition will be as mechanically competent as the releases lately, and if it won't be compatible with 4AE (and all signs point that both those statements will be true), well, I'll just have less trouble with ordering books from Germany and whatnot.

[DnDer]

Uhm, do you remember why we have such a low opinion of CGL in general and certain people there in special?

No, I was not present when those grievances were initially made. Until recently, I had not had an SR game since the early days of Third. I'm sorry. I understand that some of it centers around the publication of errata and how other materials have been released, as well as the quality of editing in the materials that were released.

I'm only offering to help the brand in the small way that I would be able. If I've missed the overall point, I apologize.

[Starglyte]

I will pick up the core book at least. I am guessing we got a while before its released. Gen Con at the earliest.

[Stahlseele]

No, I was not present when those grievances were initially made. Until recently, I had not had an SR game since the early days of Third. I'm sorry. I understand that some of it centers around the publication of errata and how other materials have been released, as well as the quality of editing in the materials that were released.

I'm only offering to help the brand in the small way that I would be able. If I've missed the overall point, I apologize.

i am afraid you have missed the main point widely actually . . but if you were not around, then that's to be expected.
go here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=30231
read it and you will understand why people are . . carefull . . when it comes to trusting them . .

[Malachi]

Doesn't matter. They have milked it too often for my money- literally.

Literally? CGL squeezed the Shadowrun books to express milk from them and then sold that milk for money?

Ugh, I should just let it go...

[Falconer]

The more I think about this. The more I have to think and put a vote of 'no confidence' in jmhardy as the line developer during all this. SR4a was exceptionally well done, and maybe that's shaded my opinions of things.

But really recent products have had a lot of what I'm going to term 'quality control' issues. It has nothing to do with silly little things like clickable index or table of contents... More in the way that many of the recent products have had severe problems with playtesting (most especially a clear lack of!)... even a lot of the PACKS stuff designed for simplicity broke the rules in many ways and people didn't catch and fix them. Fortunately most of the recent books have been very fluff and story heavy so this is mitigated a bit. The kinds of books which work no matter what edition you're playing... (just as the ancient Seattle or Denver books are still quite useful despite their age). The more I think about it... the more I see it as an outright refusal to address that there are problems in the first place at all; a willful blindness if you like.

[Samoth]

"This is the edition that they finally fix cyberlimbs!" - me 20 years ago

[Stahlseele]

That is actually the one point i like about SR4.
Cyber-Limbs were less bad than in SR3.
Frank wrote part or most of these rules if i remember correctly.

[binarywraith]

I'll be honest here, I'll probably aquire a PDF and read these rules before I drop $50 or so on a copy of the core book. RPG source books are up to AAA video game territory in costs, and after how badly I got burned on the terrible worldbuilding and rule decisions in 4th ed, I'm not in any great hurry to throw money down that hole again.

[Draco18s]

i am afraid you have missed the main point widely actually . . but if you were not around, then that's to be expected.
go here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=30231
read it and you will understand why people are . . carefull . . when it comes to trusting them . .

I still have the cards from the letters I mailed to CGL and Topps regarding that issue sitting on my desk.
(The "this was properly delivered" return receipt card, I mean)