[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

Personally Im quite fond of the concept. But I see it more as they're basically fuelled by technology so advanced it's considered magic. Going along those lines, having their source be very mundane (AI programmed nanovirae or something? I'm not one for technobabble) But having the effects appear magical, is totally fine in my book.

We just need the fluff that brings them into line with the technomages from Babylon 5. They could do crashy shit, but it was all simple tech stuff and slight of hand. "It's not an illusion, it's a hologram."

But their rules need some tweaking too, to separate them as separately viable from riggers/hackers.

[hermit]

We just need the fluff that brings them into line with the technomages from Babylon 5. They could do crashy shit, but it was all simple tech stuff and slight of hand. "It's not an illusion, it's a hologram."

They were hackers. With holoprojectors. Technom,ancers talk to machine spirits and worship the Omnissah. That's two different things.

But their rules need some tweaking too, to separate them as separately viable from riggers/hackers.

Easy. No jumping into a vehicle without a VCR, or an appropriately costly echo.

[Wakshaani]

I like the concept of Technomancers, but they had an unfortunate introduction (Included in the basic rules and an archetype before being introduced into the world, the Emergence delays making it so that they were a mysterious thing ... when they'd been played by gamers for months as just a Thing, you know?)

Bit of a stumble out of the gate that they never quite recovered from.

The rules, meanwhile, are tricky. Do you want them to be Techno-Mages, weaving electrons like mana and producing cool effects, or should they be deckers without decks, bound by the same laws as anyone else, but able to make icons dance with their thoughts instead of their fingers?

And what role do Deckers have when Technomancers are around?

I'm not sure how much of it was chewed before the introduction, but decking, as a whole, has been a problem since day 1 of Shadowrun, despite being so vital to the setting. The 4th ed move to wireless, sticking the decker in with the group instead of sittng back at a hotel, sipping from a cola can while the rest were taking fire... very nice change. Team integration and more fun for the group is key.

IMHO, the decker's role isn't far removed from the Rogue in D&D ... get doors open, open locks to get at valuables (data!), and to handle situations from a different angle than stabbing them (Street Sammies) or reducing them to ash (Magicians)... In short, Deckers solve problems by thinking. 'Tis a vital thing.

[Lionhearted]

Believing that you're communing with the machine spirit (that for all we know might just be some sort of matrix sentience) and gaining powers from it. Doesn't mean it actually works that way. Afterall people thought thunder was angry gods before we knew what caused it. People seek to explain what they do not understand, and all of the sudden having access to innate technology wired to respond to bioelectrical signals... Believing in a machine spirit isn't a far stretch.

[Daddy's Litt...]

Sorry but that is it. I am not buying the core rule books all over again. Not happing, especially after such a short burst from the two 4th ed.

[bannockburn]

Sorry but that is it. I am not buying the core rule books all over again. Not happing, especially after such a short burst from the two 4th ed.

This 'burst' was longer than SR2 or SR3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Daddy's Litt...]

Doesn't matter. They have milked it too often for my money- literally.

[Lionhearted]

I wouldn't consider 4 editions moving into a 5th in 24 years that excessive.
Want milking? Look at TCGs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Will I get it? I'm 99.9% sure. But I am a little concerned about what the changes are. It may be like the rules edition change from 1st to 2nd, so close you didn't need to upgrade the books. If so, I'd convert quickly. If not I may hold off for a while.

[hermit]

Believing that you're communing with the machine spirit (that for all we know might just be some sort of matrix sentience) and gaining powers from it. Doesn't mean it actually works that way. Afterall people thought thunder was angry gods before we knew what caused it. People seek to explain what they do not understand, and all of the sudden having access to innate technology wired to respond to bioelectrical signals... Believing in a machine spirit isn't a far stretch.

I see where you come from, but the thing is that 40K machine spirits are literally ghosts in the machine, a mystical thing. I do not thing this meshes well with Shadowrun's central paradigm that technology and magic are opposite poles.

Sorry but that is it. I am not buying the core rule books all over again. Not happing, especially after such a short burst from the two 4th ed.

With some luck, the new rules will be downwards compatible enough you won't have to, like with SR2 and SR3. Other than that, I can understand where you come from, especially with the "errata'd" new edition of the core books and SR4A having been released only a few years ago. And cheated people, because they were actually un-errata'd, because Jason Hardy just hates errata that much.

[Lionhearted]

That would be an interesting opposed duality...
Magic got Adepts and Magi
Technology got Sammies and ...TMs?
Hm, no that doesn't really work... TMs can't just stick more tech in themselves to improve.

[Patrick Goodman]

Sorry but that is it. I am not buying the core rule books all over again. Not happing, especially after such a short burst from the two 4th ed.

Eight years is a short burst? That's just about a record for a Shadowrun edition. But it's your call.

[Patrick Goodman]

... because Jason Hardy just hates errata that much.

He's generally able to defend himself, but I'm jumping in anyway because this is an untruth, in my opinion. And a personal attack, in my opinion. You're better than this kinda thing, Hermit.

[All4BigGuns]

And again, the "cry for errata" reminds me heavily of the MMO players who power-level their characters in the game to maximum level within a week of launch and then whine about there not being much already in place for maximum level characters.

[bannockburn]

Whatever it is that keeps him from posting them, at its best, it's negligence, IMO. Just as the tons of typos and other failures that don't look good for an editor in chief.
Your unofficial errata are a case in point.

[Grinder]

Will I get it? I'm 99.9% sure.

Count me in (for the limited edition of the core rulebook at least).

[Patrick Goodman]

You seem to be getting your way with the Infected already...

After a fashion. It's kind of by default; I'm the only writer who expressed an interest. I've been talked down from some of what I want to do, though.

Whatever it is that keeps him from posting them, at its best, it's negligence, IMO. Just as the tons of typos and other failures that don't look good for an editor in chief.
Your unofficial errata are a case in point.

For the record, my unofficial errata for Running Wild are from a book that predates Jason's tenure as line developer. Why they haven't been signed off on to make them official ... well, I have some suspicions on the matter, but beyond that I'm not at liberty to say. The errors, however, occurred long before Jason was in the developer position.

[hermit]

And again, the "cry for errata" reminds me heavily of the MMO players who power-level their characters in the game to maximum level within a week of launch and then whine about there not being much already in place for maximum level characters.

What. For one, it's not pining for a patch that powers up the player but that makes the game run smoothly. You just seem oblivious as to what Errata in RPGs generally are meant to do.

He's generally able to defend himself, but I'm jumping in anyway because this is an untruth, in my opinion. And a personal attack, in my opinion. You're better than this kinda thing, Hermit.

Well, I know he was sitting on errata that were formulated for years ... and then didn't release them with a new print run of the books. Also, before Hardy's tenure, some Errata were released. After his stepping up, nothing happened. This looks pretty bad to me. But yeah, maybe he did not de-errata the books deliberately. But it remains at least negligence and a bad way to treat the fan base Shadowrun depends on to sell stuff.

[DnDer]

Fifth edition Deadlier combat, really was this a problem? Another matrix revision. Shadowrun could do with an open Beta if it really wanted to fix what's wrong.
Two failed projects cards and DMZ resurrected. Will these incarnations get the audience they need?
A boardgame? Ok so some of this is obviously reaching for some new audience.
As a staunch tabletop guy with limited time I'll hold out hope for the new edition and the Stormfront plot. But with the glaring problems we've seen since revised 4 came out I'm prepared for "2013 year of the flames".

Oh live feeds sound interesting.

No. No open beta. Not ever again. I'm watching that trainwreck with Next over on the WotC forums.

Never let the fans tell you what they want in a game. Well, not like THAT, anyway.

[bannockburn]

And the errors keep cropping up. And the errata keep being suppressed. And the table of contents remain unclickable in pdfs. So yeah, I'll stay with my opinion that these are failures that should be handled by a competent editor. Because that's part of the job description.

[hermit]

What have the old, more detailed tables of content done to whoever lays out the files, anyway?

[Lionhearted]

No. No open beta. Not ever again. I'm watching that trainwreck with Next over on the WotC forums.

Never let the fans tell you what they want in a game. Well, not like THAT, anyway.

People still uses those? I stopped going there after they removed the interesting sub-forums and swept the 3.5 forums under the rug. Like we would just forget it existed...

Also open betas are great when the developers know what's worth listening to.

[All4BigGuns]

What. For one, it's not pining for a patch that powers up the player but that makes the game run smoothly. You just seem oblivious as to what Errata in RPGs generally are meant to do.

You miss the point, the "cry for errata" does sound suspiciously like whining.

[Falconer]

He's generally able to defend himself, but I'm jumping in anyway because this is an untruth, in my opinion. And a personal attack, in my opinion. You're better than this kinda thing, Hermit.

Patrick... unfortunately jmhardy's actions have done nothing whatsoever to disprove this notion only encourage it. Actions do speak louder than words. Look at all the books WITH FINISHED ERRATA which don't have it up and available on the website. How many books got reprinted without the errata included. You can't argue with those facts. Statements of fact are not personal attacks, divining the man's motives for it is a matter of opinion because as best I can recall he's never gone on the record for the decision why.

My own take is he was handed a bad hand with the financial issues... and a decision was made to focus on creating new product and selling it. Maintenance of old product is a cost center to a game company while new stuff brings money into the coffers. The problem is that occassional and good errata comes down to a basic issue of quality control.

Also you ignore that he IS the line developer. He IS a public figure. He has done little to nothing to put forth his own views in the public forum. Synner at least made regular attempts to reach out to the community and communicate with them in an interactive manner on these forums and others. While you as a freelancer may have regular interactions with him... the rest of the community at large does not. If that's your bar for a 'personal attack' then you have it set WAY too low.



All4Big you have no idea what you're talking about here. Then again you always keep yelling about ignoring the rules anyhow because characters should be handled with kid gloves. And it's not fun to have to play by rules. So what do you care if rules are maintained and amended. You're just out to play calvinball anyhow.

[hermit]

You miss the point, the "cry for errata" does sound suspiciously like whining over something that isn't that big a deal. None of the "issues" I hear people whining for errata on are really THAT big a deal.

And what you do here sounds suspiciously like trolling. What makes and doesn't make a big deal is not for you to decide anyway.

Besides, maintaining rules understandable, with as little contradiction as possible, is just product maintainance. Pushing product out and not giving a danmn if it actually works is ... bad economics in the medium to long run.