Lightning Reflexes, Any thoughts Options

[Misdemeanor]

I have always seen the Quality of Lightning Reflexes (page 98 Runners companion) as a Quality for a Mundane unaugmented character...Something to advance a non-magical/Technomancer or cybered so they can be competitive. I was reading the book and it doesn’t say mundane...It says that it can’t be combined with any other reaction or initiative enhancement, but the way it seems to read is a Magical (adept, Mystic adept, or Magician) quality or a Technical (technomancer) could take the Quality.

Any thoughts on the spirit of the quality?

[UmaroVI]

Yes, they can, they just generally shouldn't because of the harsh stacking restrictions. Free Spirits gain a reasonable benefit from it, though.

[Udoshi]

Its a decent quality in Karmagen, actually. 30 karma for two points of reaction is just as expensive as reaction 6.(with german errata)

[Makki]

it's a good quality for those races, that don't need initiative enhancements (Banshee, Vampire, Free Spirit, ...), because they already have multiple natural IPs

[Neraph]

it's a good quality for those races, that don't need initiative enhancements (Banshee, Vampire, Free Spirit, ...), because they already have multiple natural IPs

2 IP are not good enough. Also, Reaction increases are not the same as Initiative Passes.

[Glyph]

It's not specifically an unaugmented mundane quality - it's just that most augmented or awakened characters will consider initiative enhancements at some point, so it is not usually viable for them. How useful it is for free spirits or infected depends on whether or not you consider their natural extra IPs to be an "enhancement".

[Neraph]

... I think some people here are confused about the differences between Initiative and Initiative Passes. Initiative Passes are their own distinct Special Attribute listed separately from Initiative - SR4A, page 68, first and second paragraph of the page. Initiative is no more than the sum of someone's Reaction and Intuition, whereas Initiative Passes are a different attribute which determines how many times a Combat Turn someone(/thing) can act.

Any bonus to your Initiative Passes will not interfere with your ability to get a bonus from Lightning Reflexes. Also, note that it says they do not stack ("not cumulative") and not that the bonus goes away. You can have Increase Reflexes cast on yourself to get +3 to your Initiative and 4 IP and still have the +2 Reaction from this quality, although you don't factor that 2 in for calculating Initiative. Still a net bonus.

[FuelDrop]

It's also worthwhile with a junkie, as drugs can give you the extra initiative passes without losing the benefits of the PQ.

[Neraph]

It's also worthwhile with a junkie, as drugs can give you the extra initiative passes without losing the benefits of the PQ.

Not as much as you'd think. Jazz and Cram give you +2 Reaction and +2 IP, negating that pretty PQ you just got.

[FuelDrop]

Not as much as you'd think. Jazz and Cram give you +2 Reaction and +2 IP, negating that pretty PQ you just got.

Kamikaze, on the other hand, goes with it real nice...

[All4BigGuns]

2 IP are not good enough. Also, Reaction increases are not the same as Initiative Passes.

I don't get where this idea comes from. I've never run into a situation where having 2 passes "wasn't enough". Three or more is just overkill.

[toturi]

I don't get where this idea comes from. I've never run into a situation where having 2 passes "wasn't enough". Three or more is just overkill.

There are situations where 3 passes are simply not enough and I found myself wishing my character had a 4 pass. Sure, if you are careful to take jobs that have easier opposition, then having more than 2 passes is overkill, but the higher paying job tend to feature opposition with 2 or more passes themselves.

[FuelDrop]

I don't get where this idea comes from. I've never run into a situation where having 2 passes "wasn't enough". Three or more is just overkill.

Overkill is underrated, my friend.

[All4BigGuns]

There are situations where 3 passes are simply not enough and I found myself wishing my character had a 4 pass. Sure, if you are careful to take jobs that have easier opposition, then having more than 2 passes is overkill, but the higher paying job tend to feature opposition with 2 or more passes themselves.

Possibly a third pass may be necessary if and only if every opponent you're facing has a third pass--pointless to go beyond the same number as the opposition, and far too high in both essence and nuyen cost. Four passes will really never be necessary (highly doubtful any corp would put enough resources into a single individual for that kind of speed).

[Halinn]

There are situations where 3 passes are simply not enough and I found myself wishing my character had a 4 pass.

That's why edge can also be used to buy extra IPs.

[FuelDrop]

Possibly a third pass may be necessary if and only if every opponent you're facing has a third pass--pointless to go beyond the same number as the opposition, and far too high in both essence and nuyen cost. Four passes will really never be necessary (highly doubtful any corp would put enough resources into a single individual for that kind of speed).

You would be toast in some of our games. we once fought our way through a facility where they were testing K-10's reactions with other combat drugs. A ghoul on K-10, cram and Nitro is bad. 30 is a real nightmare.

Anyway, a rigger hot-siming a drone is getting 3 IP in meat space easy, with minimal resources spent, so going up against 3 IP opposition shouldn't be really rare.

[toturi]

Possibly a third pass may be necessary if and only if every opponent you're facing has a third pass--pointless to go beyond the same number as the opposition, and far too high in both essence and nuyen cost. Four passes will really never be necessary (highly doubtful any corp would put enough resources into a single individual for that kind of speed).

I disagree. I feel that a character should have one more pass than his opposition. The 4th initiative pass may be overkill against most opponents, but when you are faced with powerful opposition that has 3 passes, that 4th pass comes in very handy.

That's why edge can also be used to buy extra IPs.

Edge is usually a finite resource. With some GMs, it is a very finite resource.

[FuelDrop]

I personally feel that 3 IP should be about standard for a combat character (either 'ware or magic), as 4 IP is too heavy a resource drain. however, keep a breather of Jazz around just in case you do need that extra boost for a fight or two.

[Neraph]

I don't get where this idea comes from. I've never run into a situation where having 2 passes "wasn't enough". Three or more is just overkill.

I personally feel that 3 IP should be about standard for a combat character (either 'ware or magic), as 4 IP is too heavy a resource drain. however, keep a breather of Jazz around just in case you do need that extra boost for a fight or two.

Four are easy to come by. Three IP is easy enough to do that all my characters ever have 3 IP for combat. Also, drugs IP-boosting stacks with drugs, but not with Magic or Technology, so that Jazz won't help your Wires or your Increases.

EDIT: "Four are easy to come by" is primarily because I play MysAds standard. Increase Reflexes is a spell I always start with. Otherwise I play someone who can also rig, and 3 IP is a cakewalk with rigging. Heck, normally my MysAd is also a rigger, simply because rigging is so easy that literally anyone can do it with just a monetary investment in it ('link, trodes, Command program, and drone and you're a competent rigger).

[All4BigGuns]

I think I went as high as 3 once, but I never played the character because I didn't like how much essence and nuyen went into getting that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

2 IP are not good enough. Also, Reaction increases are not the same as Initiative Passes.

2 IP are just fine. That is generally where I try to get, in some fashion. 3 IP is not bad, but more often than not, it is not all that necesary. ANd yes, we do go up agaisnt opposition that has 3 IP fairly often, and even 4 IP in that damned Zero Zone. Combat primary Characters shoot for 3 IP, usually, with non-combat characters shooting for 2.

[toturi]

2 IP are just fine. That is generally where I try to get, in some fashion. 3 IP is not bad, but more often than not, it is not all that necesary. ANd yes, we do go up agaisnt opposition that has 3 IP fairly often, and even 4 IP in that damned Zero Zone. Combat primary Characters shoot for 3 IP, usually, with non-combat characters shooting for 2.

It is quite uncommon to have a really non-combat character. Most of the time, a PC is a combat character in some shape or form. Cybercombat is combat. Vehicular combat is combat. Astral combat is combat.

[Halinn]

Personally, I'd be loath to play a character with only a single IP, but the opportunity cost for 4 generally seems too high. I tend to agree with TJ - 2 IP for characters not about combat (faces, non-combat mages, hackers, infiltration specialists, and so on), and 3 otherwise. It's different on the matrix of course, since everything thats even half-way important there runs on 3 IPs at least.

[Neraph]

Personally, I'd be loath to play a character with only a single IP, but the opportunity cost for 4 generally seems too high. I tend to agree with TJ - 2 IP for characters not about combat (faces, non-combat mages, hackers, infiltration specialists, and so on), and 3 otherwise. It's different on the matrix of course, since everything thats even half-way important there runs on 3 IPs at least.

I don't see that at all. It's quite easy to pick up rigging in addition to whatever role your character has, and as long as you are not a TM/Awakened character, you can pick up the simsense accelerator/booster combo to get 5 IP fairly easy, even at chargen. Slap that on a decent drone and you're basically invincible.

[Miri]

I don't see that at all. It's quite easy to pick up rigging in addition to whatever role your character has, and as long as you are not a TM/Awakened character, you can pick up the simsense accelerator/booster combo to get 5 IP fairly easy, even at chargen. Slap that on a decent drone and you're basically invincible.

Until someone shoots your drone and your rolling feedback because it was damaged and you were hotsimming it..