Shadowrun Tabletop - Hidden Stories Options

[hermit]

One guy with a really big gun could theorectically take out a Great Dragon. But. Those armies could well be Grunts. If those armies are a single (although extremely large) unit of Grunts with a low Professional Rating, guess what? Then it is also theorectically possible for huge armies to attack a Great Dragon and fail to kill it which we see in the fiction.

But, as a rule, ever since fighter jets became real expensive, grunts weren't made pilots. And the given text exclaims at great length how dozens of fighter planes (and hundreds of drones) are lost to Sirrugzilla.

Each of these pilots arguably has a decent rigger setup. That means a VCR, a simsense booster maybe, a commlink optimised for rigging, and maybe these rigger nanites and some drugs administered as a shot before takeoff (they're to face off a Great Dragon, they'd need all the boost they can get). Leaving aside their spirit co-pilot possessing them for even more boni, that's:
4 IP, a Matrix initiative of around 15, and a pool of about 20. Those aren't grunts by a long shot (unfortunatly, War doesn't give us pilot stats, because the New Grunts chaper's author apparently doesn't know airplanes need pilots, so I have to guess a bit here based on rigger PC I know).

[bannockburn]

Please not another multiple pages long discussion what it takes to take down a great dragon with stats.
Yes. They are mortal.
Yes, they can be killed. No, it's not easy and yes, it will probably a plot device.

However, I don't see one reason why they should do it themselves in the amounts that are alluded to. Lofwyr - Nachtmeister was understandable, poaching in Lofwyr's backyard and trying to outscheme him is crazy stupid if you look at it that way, but that's old news.
Apart from Sirrurg's apparent death at the hand of Aztlantech's entire military, it's implied that Hestaby goes away or dies and either Lofwyr or Alamaise die in a fight, supported by multiple other greats and a lot of adult dragons. I cannot even understand the premise.

1) Dragons are loners. They have vast territories they use to hunt and are highly territorial and competitive. They do not go and flock together under the banner of Che Guemaise to eat squatters in GeMiTo. Not because the squatters would get rare, but because they dislike their own company. Which is, incidentally, also why they often meet in the astral, not in the physical. Furthermore, it makes them vulnerable, because dragons usually spend their time sleeping in their lairs between meals, except when they are scheming and have to pull strings personally.
That was one of the reasons why Lofwyr killed Nachtmeister. He was too close to home and directly tried to interfere with his business. Other dragons in this area are left alone, as they make a healthy loop around Big L and his areas of interest.
The main argument against my Point could be that Lofwyr sees the entire world as his domain, caesar-like corporate monster boss that he is, but this has also been solved by obtaining the position as Loremaster.
All this has been established and is conveniently forgotten for the purpose of decimating the dragon population for ... reasons I cannot fathom.
There have been 19 canon great dragons (I am ignoring Schneefloeckchen and Sonador / Pobre, as they are either stupid or there's not a lot evidence for them being greats). 3 of those, Feuerschwinge, Dunkelzahn and Nachtmeister, are now dead (Funny how it only hits the ones with German names ^^), leaving 16. Another 3 to vanish / die would leave only 13 great dragons and seriously endanger them as a species, as these individuals are the only ones who are able to hatch eggs!

Therefore...
2) Dragons do not go to war with each other. The only recorded incidents of dragons killing dragons were in ritualistic combat. Yes. They attack each other and scheme and compete with each other. But they do not go out and kill until something extreme happens, which is usually something deeply personal between the two dragons fighting.
Nachtmeister e.g. attacked Lofwyr's assets with the help of Wilhelmina Graff-Beloit and the Frankfurter Bankenverein in his own territory over several years, which mounted in the ritual combat above Frankfurt. Even then it probably wouldn't have lead to a death if those attack helicopters hadn't attacked Lofwyr. Nachtmeister had also killed an adult dragon years earlier, so it was entirely possible that Lofwyr saw him as a traitor to his kind.
The worst that happened to a great dragon before was being ostracized and banished from dragon society. That was Denairastas for breaking the covenant of breeding with mortals (which was a monumentally bad idea to dragons, as proven by Alamaise's creation of the immortal elves), and even then he only did it more subtle.
Furthermore, they do not form armies and go at each other's throats. Why? Because it's stupid and dragons are everything but. The potential loss of life is staggering and they are very probably aware of that fact. Hell, I'm a Logic 3 kind of guy and can see that.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Alamaise amassing support from the younger dragons and building a faction not beholden to the Loremaster, maybe even pronounce himself to be counter-loremaster ... But I don't see why they would risk the survival of their species by going to war with him. There are easier ways.

[thorya]

One guy with a really big gun could theorectically take out a Great Dragon. But. Those armies could well be Grunts. If those armies are a single (although extremely large) unit of Grunts with a low Professional Rating, guess what? Then it is also theoretically possible for huge armies to attack a Great Dragon and fail to kill it which we see in the fiction.

In setting and in fiction, it has yet been done. This much is true.

Yeah, with 20 hardened armor, 20 mystic armor, and a soak pool in the 60's, most small arms are not getting through. They're essentially flying tanks, but with less of the plink, plink, boom problem. Small arms are mostly there to distract the dragon while someone lines up a gauss cannon or anti-vehicle weapon. But with a sniper rifle or something in a similar damage range 8P, +4 called shot, -7 AP (with armor piercing rounds), you've at least got it rolling to resist damage. With an assault cannon and a called shot you might even get it to take a box or two. Or even get it to use a bit of it's edge. It's going to retaliate with something that will probably kill anything but a heavily armored troll though so be ready. And they can reasonably cast heal on nearly any set of injuries with their massive soak pools to recover quickly, which is why they had to keep them surrounded. With a highly skilled shooter (21 dice pool) going full auto narrow burst with all but 3 of the recoil compensated for (18 dice pool) on a surprised dragon at short range with stick-n-shock (because if you're going to break it go cheesy, so 15S base) getting above average hits (average 6, we'll say 9 hits, so 24 damage) against a great dragon with 63 soak pool getting below average hits (cut in half to 31 by sns, average 10 hits, we'll say 5) the dragon takes 19S which is enough to knock it out and start doing physical. That's a lot of stipulations, but it is possible to one shot a dragon.

If you are using the type of heavy weapons mounted in those drones and other vehicles, Great Dragon Anti-Tank rounds with a direct hit you might get a box or two but on average less than 1, zapper rockets are close to averaging one 1 box on a direct hit (unless you add net hits for a direct strike with a rocket), AV assault cannon rounds with a called shot are definitely making it roll but doing less than a box on average, Gauss Cannon does net hits worth of damage on average, Firelance vehicle laser does net hits+1, GM heavy cannon is doing net hits-1, and a sparrow-hawk missile does 4 boxes on average. There are probably things from War! that would do more, but it actually seems like the stories have been pretty accurate with the weapons from SR4A and Arsenal in terms of how fighting a dragon would go.

Of course, that's just a normal great dragon. The named ones are even more badass.

I've liked the description of taking down the great dragons. It makes them seem threatening and organized enough that you're not going to do it on a whim, but still within the range of a mega-corp to crack down if they really need to. It would be like trying to take down a paramilitary organization with some really good equipment or corp, it should take resources or people would do it everyday.

[thorya]

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Alamaise amassing support from the younger dragons and building a faction not beholden to the Loremaster, maybe even pronounce himself to be counter-loremaster ... But I don't see why they would risk the survival of their species by going to war with him. There are easier ways.

Such as?

And sorry for bringing mechanics into it, but if someone claims that the stories don't match the mechanics in a place where they seem to be doing much better than usual, I would like to actually show the numbers to prove that.

[bannockburn]

Such as the usual dragon politics which have been working for 40000 years+?
Fluff is not mechanics, btw.

[thorya]

Such as the usual dragon politics which have been working for 40000 years+?
Fluff is not mechanics, btw.

Never said it was. But with how much respect fluff gets on dumpshock, I've stopped trying to have those conversations.

[bannockburn]

I'm not sure if you're trying to say that you don't want to talk about the topic, or not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But maybe I should explain the point a bit more instead of putting out a snarky one-liner.

Dragon's have been dealing with each other (in their mythology, and they have long memories) since shortly after the creation of the world. Their society is infinitely more intricate than what humans could have devised simply because they've had MUCH more time on their hands to work it out. Sure, they're not infallible, and they're feral. But they have rituals and rules, and a lot of them are designed to avoid having them kill each other. Alamaise and Lofwyr are from the same brood and have been born somewhere in the ballpark neighborhood of Dunkelzahn and Ghostwalker. Alamaise has been described as "one of the oldest great dragons" (in ED's Book of Dragons) and was probably born in the 2nd world. He should know better than going for direct confrontation, especially with his track-record in the 6th world, where he basically works as a terrorist does.
In my eyes, even if dragon society would fracture into two factions, they would go on with their business as usual.
Why? Because dragon society already is fractured in multiple factions. Every dragon has its own best interest closest at heart and essentially doesn't care for what others want.
Also, they would just use politics and straw men and act from behind the scenes if they'd decide to go at each other.

[thorya]

Who's to say that isn't what happened with Sirrug? Someone maneuvering Aztlan at him.

I think it's also important to realize that with their massive intelligence comes massive egos. And ego induced stupidity has done in nearly as many people historically as straight stupidity. It's possible either Alamais or Lofwyr or both greatly misjudged the others capabilities, sort of World War I style, and then they couldn't back down.

[bannockburn]

I'm not saying that Sirrurg shouldn't die. He needs that lesson, and ultimately, he would agree. After all, he wasn't the fittest then and deserved his death (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I'm saying, that dragons would under no circumstances go to war with each other. They never even tried to kill a horror-possessed great dragon in the ED times. Instead they let him go and do as he pleased. If Verjigorm came back with his cocooned dragonhorror army? Yes. I could grok that. Not this way.

I think it's also important to realize that with their massive intelligence comes massive egos.

Massive egos tend to be held in check by other massive egos, though. The loremaster isn't all-powerful and can just order his fellow dragons around. They turned to his side on their own, which is why I hold the entire concept of a dragon civil war to be stupid and counterintuitive. It seems like dragon society as a whole has developed a completely irrational rage boner and is hellbound for self-extinction.
Sure. You can find reasons why they do that. But in my opinion it shows a remarkable lack of a sense of self-preservation as a species and a lack of far-sight. Both are traits that have been established to be very important characteristics of dragons.
This is why I say: I cannot follow and I do not like.

[hermit]

The only recorded incidents of dragons killing dragons were in ritualistic combat.

Well, there was Haesslich's killing Tessien just because (and to free Cathy Hart so Sam "faithless bitch" Verner could upgrade his girlfriend from magic to magic elf). But a creature that chooses the name "butt ugly" for himself probably is a walking mountain of unresolved issues. And he never even made the board of directors, he was just a local security chief. By dragon standards, this is a brutal failure on every level.

If you are using the type of heavy weapons mounted in those drones and other vehicles, Great Dragon Anti-Tank rounds with a direct hit you might get a box or two but on average less than 1, zapper rockets are close to averaging one 1 box on a direct hit (unless you add net hits for a direct strike with a rocket), AV assault cannon rounds with a called shot are definitely making it roll but doing less than a box on average, Gauss Cannon does net hits worth of damage on average, Firelance vehicle laser does net hits+1, GM heavy cannon is doing net hits-1, and a sparrow-hawk missile does 4 boxes on average. There are probably things from War! that would do more, but it actually seems like the stories have been pretty accurate with the weapons from SR4A and Arsenal in terms of how fighting a dragon would go.

A cruise missile or anti-ship missile out of MilSpec Tech, War and MilSpec Tech 2 will kill a dragon outright. Like an Ares Penetrator, 64P with -20 AP, for instance - given a decent tacnet, a well-modified and trained rigger guiding it in, and we're looking at some 8 to 10 successes - good luck (and it comes with a blast radius too). Run MRSI and attack with several missiles in formation, and we're looking at chunky dragon salsa. Further, going by the rules War established, a autofire minigrenade launcher (such as the Fleche XM-407) running MRSI will likely suffice for ridiculously unsoakable damage.

But since Aztlan apparently insists on their planes engaging the dragon in a dogfight (because that's not been done in 150 in-game years and makes as much sense as having submarines surface for a crossing the T maneuver), they're losing half their air force where a bunch of precise cruise missiles with a spirit escort and some ritual magic to burn through the dragon's magical defenses would have sufficed. I call bullshit on that.

[bannockburn]

Actually forgot about Haesslich (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But well, could be a territory thing. And it pre-dates the other established rituals that came later, and in sourcebooks even. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

Haesslich just was dragon society's equivalent of an antisocial bum. Oh, and I forgot, his main black project, the Doppelganger creature, he stole from S-K. Every dragon in the world is probably ashamed of Haesslich's lack of achievement.

[Grinder]

Please move the discussion about dragons in a new thread or use one of the already existing.

[toturi]

But, as a rule, ever since fighter jets became real expensive, grunts weren't made pilots. And the given text exclaims at great length how dozens of fighter planes (and hundreds of drones) are lost to Sirrugzilla.

Each of these pilots arguably has a decent rigger setup. That means a VCR, a simsense booster maybe, a commlink optimised for rigging, and maybe these rigger nanites and some drugs administered as a shot before takeoff (they're to face off a Great Dragon, they'd need all the boost they can get). Leaving aside their spirit co-pilot possessing them for even more boni, that's:
4 IP, a Matrix initiative of around 15, and a pool of about 20. Those aren't grunts by a long shot (unfortunatly, War doesn't give us pilot stats, because the New Grunts chaper's author apparently doesn't know airplanes need pilots, so I have to guess a bit here based on rigger PC I know).

This assumes RL logic, that since fighter jets are real expensive, pilots are not statted up as Grunts. But in most examples of NPC pilots/riggers from published sources (and granted that these NPCs are not fighter jet pilots), they are statted up as such.

[hermit]

I checked, all grunts in War are exactly that: ground soldiers. I'll look into Unwired, I think they had pro Riggers in there.

[Grinder]

Please move the discussion about dragons in a new thread or use one of the already existing.

Just a reminder.

[Blade]

In short: Mary Sues are bad.

This applies to many of the topics discussed here.

[Smirnov]

next password will be around tomorrow?

[hermit]

Hopefully.

[Halinn]

We waited more than a week for the last one.

Mostly for my own benefit, here's a link to the last one from this batch: http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/coming-soon/dragon-29/

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just want to take a moment and thank all you folks working hard at figuring this stuff out.

As a some what lazy Troll myself, I appreciate you ladies and gents doing the work, so I can read the storys and stuff.

Big thanks for the work you're putting in.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Any updates on the stories?

[tasti man LH]

Doesn't look like it...

...well, except for that one bit from JackPoint twitter about how AA corps' extraterritoriality going under review by the Corporate Court, and hinting at a possible "House of Commons" made for all AAs...

[Shaidar]

Am I correct in the belief that several of the Hidden Stories are still missing parts?

Namely
Fractures: part 4 & possibly unfinished
Pulling the Trigger: parts 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, & 12
Princes: part 6 & possibly unfinished
Ares: parts 1, 2, 4 & possibly unfinished
Dragons: parts 1,2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26, 27 & 28

[CrystalBlue]

So I was reading through the stories so far and got to Dragon 15...and then I kinda had to do a double take at the name on the top of it. I was a little concerned. I said to myself "Did someone hack my Internets?" Then I thought about it and said "Maybe I was still logged into an account somewhere?" Cause the name Crystal Blue doesn't just pop up every now and then. And I've been using it for my characters for the better part of the last ten years. So, maybe I thought that it was just a coincidence. Maybe there's another character out there in the universe that they just happen to grab for a quick paragraph. That is also a mage.

I mean, on one hand that would mean that it's just another mage out there named Crystal Blue that no one really knows about and is only being used as exposition for the canon of a story. On the other hand, it might mean that my character was seen once before and is part of the canon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm pretty sure I'm not that lucky, though.