[X] My Assistant

[Samoth]

And crazy stacking rules are only crazy if you allow them to get that way. I have yet to see any armor above 15 unless it was a Milspec suit (with those being pretty rare at our table - they are crazy obvious, after all). Most of the armor at our table is around the 8-12 range. *shrug*

For under 5000Y:

Lined Coat 6/4
Ballstic Mask +2/+1
FFBA Full 6/2
Helmet +1/+2
PPP Set (no helmet) +2/+4
Snake Mesh Socks (+0/+2 at lower legs and feet only)
17/13

All easy to get, low-cost gear that would realistically be worn together.

[bannockburn]

the word is 'could', not 'would' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

the word is 'could', not 'would' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thank You... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For under 5000Y:

Lined Coat 6/4
Ballstic Mask +2/+1
FFBA Full 6/2
Helmet +1/+2
PPP Set (no helmet) +2/+4
Snake Mesh Socks (+0/+2 at lower legs and feet only)
17/13

All easy to get, low-cost gear that would realistically be worn together.

So you would allow the simultaneous wearing of the Full FFBA Hood, the Ballistic Mask and the Helmet at your table? See, we do not, because that is just silly. *shrug* And besides, What you have listed is an effective 14/14 for Encumbrance (your totals are wrong, it is 17/15). So, anyone without a 7+ Body is encumbered.

As for the Snake Mesh Socks... Not happening at our table. They will work great for Snakes. Not so much for anything else. *shrug*

[Samoth]

So you would allow the simultaneous wearing of the Full FFBA Hood, the Ballistic Mask and the Helmet at your table? See, we do not, because that is just silly. *shrug* And besides, What you have listed is an effective 14/14 for Encumbrance (your totals are wrong, it is 17/15). So, anyone without a 7+ Body is encumbered.

As for the Snake Mesh Socks... Not happening at our table. They will work great for Snakes. Not so much for anything else. *shrug*

FFBA, ballistic mask and helmet all stack by the rules (at least there are no rules saying they don't).

My point was to make an example of how ridiculous the armor system in SR4 can quickly become. None of that gear is above availability 12.

By the RAW, Snake Mesh Socks add +2 impact armor to legs and feet, period.

[bannockburn]

Good thing that a) there is still a GM who lets the system become that ridiculous and b) there is no target zone system in place (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yeah. I'd like the armor system overhauled as well and I hope that is what 'grittier and deadlier' means.

[Bigity]

One minor thing I would like is for weapon and magic ratings to be standardized. No more "special chambering +2 recoil comp" for the Ares Alpha but no other gun, for example. All weapons of a class should be built off of a template and priced accordingly with no special features unavailable normally. The same goes for magic - all spells should have drain modifiers relative to their class, just like they would if they used the in-game spell creation system.

Minor? That would keep me out before even seeing the books. Hands down.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

FFBA, ballistic mask and helmet all stack by the rules (at least there are no rules saying they don't).

My point was to make an example of how ridiculous the armor system in SR4 can quickly become. None of that gear is above availability 12.

By the RAW, Snake Mesh Socks add +2 impact armor to legs and feet, period.

Yes, they all stack by RAW. That is why you have a GM... to adjudicate such sillyness.
Who cares if the Availability is ABOVE 12. None of that matters with adjudication of what should go together. Besides, are you penalizing those who wear such silliness with the encumbrance of 14/14? If you are not, then you are letting them get away with it. If you are allowing 3 "Helmet-like" armors to be worn together, no wonder you are having issues.

As for the Snake Socks, Who cares what the RAW is. We do not allow them to apply to anything other than Snake Bites. See how easy that is. A little common sense gets you a long ways. *shrug*

[Samoth]

Yes, they all stack by RAW. That is why you have a GM... to adjudicate such sillyness.
Who cares if the Availability is ABOVE 12. None of that matters with adjudication of what should go together. Besides, are you penalizing those who wear such silliness with the encumbrance of 14/14? If you are not, then you are letting them get away with it. If you are allowing 3 "Helmet-like" armors to be worn together, no wonder you are having issues.

As for the Snake Socks, Who cares what the RAW is. We do not allow them to apply to anything other than Snake Bites. See how easy that is. A little common sense gets you a long ways. *shrug*

Where are you getting 3 helmet-like armors? Helmet I get, Ballstic Mask is face-only, and the FFBA full suit would be more like a ski mask.

[ElFenrir]

This does go to show though how such different tables can be and there isn't a right way. Our table uses FFBA, PPP, Snake Mesh Socks and all of that by RAW, we DON'T use availability at chargen even, using a 'Pick stuff that makes sense for your character rule', and our games are awesome fun and everyone gets a chance to shine, in and out of combat depending on what they do. They are a cut above average power, yes(not uber or anything). But I also think we might be different in that a lot of us have played together for years already and are best friends, which sorta puts a higher level of trust around that we all know each other so well and what we're doing. We make up stuff that 'sounds like it'll work.''

I admit I don't count my blessings enough to have such a chill gaming group that worrying about banning items and the like is something we don't need to do-but I can understand why other tables would do it.(I admit-even we might be a bit wary if a known munchkin whom we don't know well wanted to join our group and we might, in that case, want to tighten down the hatches.) I know some tables that prefer to play 300 BP street rats and others that like to play 650 BP elites. I guess in books I like when there is stuff that can be used in higher-and lower-power games.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Where are you getting 3 helmet-like armors? Helmet I get, Ballstic Mask is face-only, and the FFBA full suit would be more like a ski mask.

Yes, all helmet like. All cover the Head/Face. And since they do not have hit locations in Shadowrun, all apply whether or not you are shot in the back of the head or the Face, and therefore all act like a Helmet. *shrug*
Regardless, their Encumbrance adds up.

[Elfenlied]

Personally, I'd like to see "must-have" items increased in price, or adjusted to no longer be "must-have".

The worst offender in my book is:
-Emotionsoft/toy: Either everyone has it, or no one. Not having it while facing someone who does puts you at a major disadvantage.

Followed by:
-FFBA: I'm fine with wearing it under regular (or lightly armed) clothing, but when SWAT+FFBA becomes better than Milspec, it gets stupid.
-Smartlink: It's essentially a free +2 DP bonus that you'd be stupid not to take. I wish they would distinguish between implanted smartlink and smartlink goggles. Which brings me to...
-Visual/audio enhancements: Nowadays, Cybereyes and Ears are rarely seen in game anymore, since all the relevant upgrades are available as cheap external devices.
-"Best in category" items: Most item types, especially weapons, have one clear "best" item. I wish they would include viable sidegrades, but as it stands, the Ares Alpha is the best Assault Rifle (2pts of free RC), the Morrisey Elan is the best holdout (free plastic upgrade), the AA is the best shotgun (FA, GV and R availability. Did I mention that GV are usually not available for shotguns?)
-Betel: 5 extra BP at chargen, +1 to all perception checks, all for the measly price of 1 Nuyen per dose and 1 notoriety.

I'm fine with certain items being necessary, e.g. comlinks, lifestyles and fake sins, but the list of essential items should be kept small.

For under 5000Y:

Lined Coat 6/4
Ballstic Mask +2/+1
FFBA Full 6/2
Helmet +1/+2
PPP Set (no helmet) +2/+4
Snake Mesh Socks (+0/+2 at lower legs and feet only)
17/13

All easy to get, low-cost gear that would realistically be worn together.

Add a machete, and the character starts to look like a comic book villain.

[Stahlseele]

Hockey Stick.
Casey Jones.
Or CanRay.
*runs like hell*

[Wakshaani]

Personally, I'd like to see "must-have" items increased in price, or adjusted to no longer be "must-have".

Agreed in full, here.

Anytime that there's a best option, full stop, there are issues. Benefits that have a counterbalance? That's fine as long as the tradeoff is fair. (+3 Power but your gun has 1 less ammo capacity? Not happening. One more power, half ammo? Likely!)

Things that are too good need to be scaled back while things that are too weak need to be boosted. What thos ethings are, and how much reduction/increase there should be, well, those are matters of discussion.

[Sengir]

And now for something more fundamental and controversial: Shadowrun needs hit locations with separate armor values. The idea of "one character, one armor value" is not bad at face value, but in practice you can spend more time trying to work around the insanity the system creates, than it actually saves.
This is not AoE where you purchase a "helmet" upgrade for your troops and the effect is +2 armor in their stat display. This is a roleplaying game, where you are supposed to play a character who is now wearing a helmet, a real helmet and not a piece of handwavium named "helmet" for the lack of a better name with some abstract stat bonus. So what does the GM do if you wear a helmet and besides that only standard battledress? Make opponents take Called Shots to hit anywhere but your head? Tell you to screw immersion and just accept your magic helmet?

The question is just how to make it work, but other RPGs show that it can be done without complexity bloat. My favourite example is Dark Heresy...I am not advocating a switch to D100 and can't even speak for the game in general, but their idea for hit zones is great: The attack roll is a standard roll-under D100 system, then you reverse the order of the dice and that is the hit location. Say you rolled a 50 on your attack roll, if that is enough to hit you reverse the dice and look up what hit location a 05 is (IIRC 10 and under is a headshot, congratulations).


Oh, and, bringing back SOME of the more complex interactions between cyberware would be nice. Implanting a Datajack in a Cyberlimb should make no difference to the Essence cost, since it still needs to be wired to the nervous system; Bone Lacing should cost less if half your limbs are cyber; and so on.

[All4BigGuns]

Hit Locations being added == Deal Breaker

[Tashiro]

And now for something more fundamental and controversial: Shadowrun needs hit locations with separate armor values. The idea of "one character, one armor value" is not bad at face value, but in practice you can spend more time trying to work around the insanity the system creates, than it actually saves.

The problem with hit locations becomes creating armour values by location, health by location, and then creating a smooth system for determining where people get hit. Then you need to take cover into account on top of this, and positioning. If you're firing from a higher angle, there's more chance you'll hit the head/shoulders/arms, than the torso/legs. Then you need to start taking into account things like damage/destruction of hit location. If you shoot someone in the arm and they're dropped into the deep overflow, is the arm damaged, or destroyed? Can it be healed normally, or is it effectively 'gone'? Then you need to start considering people who will begin to routinely do 'head shots'.

That being said, I liked Top Secret S.I.'s hit location system. You rolled D%, and the 10s place was hit location (0-9), and the 1's place was damage if you were unarmed (0-9). If you rolled doubles, it was a critical hit to the location, resulting in immediate 'death' for the location. Your skill rank (1-6) indicated how far you could 'bump' the hit location to be closer to where you want. It was actually fairly fluid, but obviously can't work for Shadowrun (since SR uses a successes-based system, and doesn't use d%).

Oh, and, bringing back SOME of the more complex interactions between cyberware would be nice. Implanting a Datajack in a Cyberlimb should make no difference to the Essence cost, since it still needs to be wired to the nervous system; Bone Lacing should cost less if half your limbs are cyber; and so on.

I agree, a datajack in a cyberlimb shouldn't have an essence cost -- the cyberlimb's already attached to the nervous system -- you aren't making 'more attachment'. The amount of additional implantation would be so miniscule as to be irrelevant. It's why I'm glad cybereyes and cyberears give a certain amount of freebies on essence. I can see where you're coming from in reference to bone lacing (and I think the same should apply to things like muscle augmentation, too).

Hmm. Going with this theory, it would be interesting to see 'by limb' packages and 'total body' packages, where you can pick a part of your body and decide what to do with it - much like how 'headware' exists as a category. In fact, 'build your own' cyberware could be... interesting. Pick what kind of augmentation you want, pick body location which would make sense, then determine essence cost.

For example, brain augmentations which connect with the eyes and ears to give superior balance (For balance checks and similar), or to heighten awareness and response time (+1 IP). Then you could make 'brand name' cybernetics, which are available from certain corporations, but not others.

Just a thought.

[Umidori]

My Wishlist, so far...

1) Quick Combat - I'm tired of spending hours slogging through fights.

2) Quick Hacking - Focus it on simple actions that can be done piecemeal. Hacking a single device should be about as quick as picking a locked door, or busting one down with brute force. Hacking is currently too all-or-nothing, requiring a lot of time and effort and typically resulting in either total control or utter failure. Simply put (and forgive the pun), the system is too binary.

Hacking should be a utility skill. A hacker should be able to do lots of small things that on their own are useful, but not game breaking. Need to bypass a specific security camera? You should be able to temporarily disable or spoof that individual camera by itself, rather than have to take control of an entire security system. Want to force an enemy's gun to eject the ammo? You shouldn't have to conquer their entire PAN to do so.

Make it abstract. Make it a little unrealistic if you have to. But make it fast and fun.

3) Sidegrades, Not Upgrades - Be it magic, toys, weapons, or 'ware, nothing should be obviously superior compared to other objects of its kind. You shouldn't end up with "problem items" like Stick-N-Shock, Tacnets, and Form Fitting Body Armor, just to name some of the better known ones. Every benefit needs to be matched with some detriment, and vice-versa.

4) Rebalanced Metatypes / Metavariants / Et Cetera - Many people agree, when you crunch the numbers Orks have huge bonuses for their low costs, while many other character "race" options are just badly underpowered or flat-out overpriced. Certain choices are just so sub-optimal or ineffecient as to make it very hard to justify ever playing them. This imbalance often makes it feel like the system punishes those who wish to play certain exotic or unusual character types, and no one should EVER feel like they can't play the type of character they want to play without being unfairly restricted or penalized.

5) Reworked Skills - The current system works, but there are rough patches and weird overlaps. Weapons divide into different skills oddly, technical skills are often too narrow or redundant, there are too many magical skills to juggle, et cetera.

6) More Non-Lethal Options - There are just too few ways to inflict stun damage.

~Umi

[Draco18s]

Hit Locations being added == Deal Breaker

How about Optional Hit Locations?

[All4BigGuns]

How about Optional Hit Locations?

Optional, fine, but only optional.

[phlapjack77]

How about Optional Hit Locations?

Not sure I like the idea of optional hit locations. Then, the armor rules need changing to be taken into account, then health in total vs. that of the body part, then the cover rules etc. Seems to snowball into a ton of things that need to be tacked on. Either make the rules integrate the idea of hit locations, or don't. Personally, I like the idea of hit locations.

I'd say, there should be a minimum of optional rules. Don't try to be everything to everybody, or it'll turn into D&D Next.

[Halinn]

Hit Locations being added == Deal Breaker

Going by the what's been mentioned by now, any change at all, as well as no change at all, are both deal breakers. This means that whatever they do, it's a deal breaker to someone.

[All4BigGuns]

Going by the what's been mentioned by now, any change at all, as well as no change at all, are both deal breakers. This means that whatever they do, it's a deal breaker to someone.

Well, hit locations do nothing positive for a game. All they do is add completely unnecessary complexity.

[Halinn]

Well, hit locations do nothing positive for a game. All they do is add completely unnecessary complexity.

It adds some level of realism, and it can mean more tactical decisions. The main concern is, of course, whether it's even possible to do relatively seamlessly.

[All4BigGuns]

It adds some level of realism, and it can mean more tactical decisions. The main concern is, of course, whether it's even possible to do relatively seamlessly.

Here's a diagram of what really should be, IMO.

Game<---------------------|-------------------->Realism

If I want 'realism' I'll take a step out my front door.