[X] My Assistant

[Fatum]

Actually, new regions are covered in wireless from the get go as of now. Because building a single backbone line and an LTE/WiMAX/whatever hub is cheaper than laying hundreds of "last mile" cables. So the client devices are going wireless in the next dozen years at the very worst. Wired connections will be as outdated and quaint as wired phones are now.

[DireRadiant]

I think the only thing I would add into the current SR4 setting as it evolves to SR5 would be a few more elements of Transhumanism.

[Patrick Goodman]

I think the only thing I would add into the current SR4 setting as it evolves to SR5 would be a few more elements of Transhumanism.

Blech.

[Tashiro]

I think the only thing I would add into the current SR4 setting as it evolves to SR5 would be a few more elements of Transhumanism.

I do find transhumanism to be very interesting, and a growing part of Shadowrun. It's something I like to explore. Actually, my sister took this to an extreme in our recent Shadowrun campaign. A combat adept who clones herself, augments her clones, then 'possesses' these clones to perform her assignments. The clone seems to act and move almost like a puppet, floppy, fluid, and too graceful, and speaks in the third person. It's really creeped out the players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought the character was particularly inspiring.

She's currently trying to develop metamagic techniques to allow her to 'carry' some of her abilities into her clones.

[Remnar]

Because that's not cyberpunk. SR is, or at least should be, a mainly cyberpunk game, along with the fantasy elements that made it unique. If I want to play a modern scifi game or something, I'd play it/buy it.

And you are fooling yourself if you think we are gonna see a wireless world in our lifetimes. Not while someone can make money off of slowly upgrading areas outside of major metropolitan areas (read: most of the world).

It's beside the point anyway. SR was never meant to be a real world in the future with elves simulator. It was based on a specific idea of what the future would be, and should stick to that. At least, IMO. Of course whoever owns the license gets to make that call. I can't say what sales looked like in previous editions vs now, and I'm not even sure those numbers would mean anything with the way the industry has been lately.

All I can say is that I, personally, will not be purchasing any of the RPG material if it sticks to what 4E has already been doing, because I'm not interested in it. Fluff wise, or crunch wise.

This, for me. Shadowrun's allure, to me, was always the Cyberpunk aspect, and since 4E I've been missing both the cyber and the punk. If I want to play near-future "hard" Sci-fi with transumanism... Eclipse Phase gets its right for me. If I want Cyberpunk... I guess I'll go back to 2E or 3E Shadowrun (fluff wise).

My wish for 5th Edition would be to give some homage back to the roots by making it era independent and maybe produce material for multiple eras. That'll keep everyone happy fluff wise, and if the crunch is sililar or better than 4E (which I like, rules wise) then everyone will still be mostly happy.

If the meta stays on its current timeline and path it'll probably be the end of my Shadowrun purchases. Sad to see an era end after 20 some odd years.

As usual, YMMV

[binarywraith]

I think the only thing I would add into the current SR4 setting as it evolves to SR5 would be a few more elements of Transhumanism.

Kinda goes counter to the explicit crunch and fluff behind Essence there, chummer. One of the setting's hard rules is that humanity is humanity, and altering that irrevocably reduces it.

[nezumi]

I'm with Remnar.

I like transhumanism. I play tons of EP. I'd love SR transhuman supplements. However, when I play Shadowrun, it's because I want cyberpunk. Can't say I wouldn't play a transhuman game with magic and orks. But I wouldn't call it Shadowrun, and it wouldn't be an 'upgrade' for me; it would be a totally new game I'd play in addition to SR3.

[Micawber]

Because that's not cyberpunk. SR is, or at least should be, a mainly cyberpunk game, along with the fantasy elements that made it unique. If I want to play a modern scifi game or something, I'd play it/buy it.

And you are fooling yourself if you think we are gonna see a wireless world in our lifetimes. Not while someone can make money off of slowly upgrading areas outside of major metropolitan areas (read: most of the world).

It's beside the point anyway. SR was never meant to be a real world in the future with elves simulator. It was based on a specific idea of what the future would be, and should stick to that. At least, IMO. Of course whoever owns the license gets to make that call. I can't say what sales looked like in previous editions vs now, and I'm not even sure those numbers would mean anything with the way the industry has been lately.

All I can say is that I, personally, will not be purchasing any of the RPG material if it sticks to what 4E has already been doing, because I'm not interested in it. Fluff wise, or crunch wise.

I wonder how this wouldn't be Cyberpunk anymore? Let's see the cornerstones of Cyberpunk:

Negative Impact of technology on humanity - check
Fusion of man and machine - the transhumanism aspect that could be expanded on even further - check
Corporate control over society - check
Story focuses on the underground - check - it's the name of the game
Ubiquitous Access to information - wireless matrix rocks - check
Cyberpunk visuals and style - arguably the only one regressing but only if your a fan of that oldschool 80s punk look

Every genre is evolving all the time. In many it's hard to perceive the progress cuz the genre has already spread so far and is so omnipresent (the Tolkien-esk fantasy genre for example) that the change happens more on the borders and it often takes years or longer to ooze into the peoples perception and finally becomes a generally accepted part of the genre itself. Cyberpunk is just in it's puberty when compared to classic fantasy and moving the genre forward has a much bigger influence on all of it's followers as it's is much easier to perceive.

My point beeing: it's good that people redefine, remix, progress and evolve what's perceived as Cyberpunk.

Shadowrun is still a living and breathing Cyberpunk game as the cornerstones of the genre are far from beeing transgressed. I for one think Shadowrun was indeed created with the idea in mind to project a realistic future with the added aspect of magic. What was done with SR4 and the wireless matrix, the commlinks, expanded nanoware, gentech and technologie in general reinforce me in that opinion as it is a visible effort to - again - project technological progress at a reasonable rate. Granted - it's not out-of-the-box thinking and chances are we will reach the SR tech-lvl much much sooner but thats a general problem in sci fi and another topic alltogether (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


on topic Shadowrun 5th edition wishlist:

> streamlined hacking (as mentioned numerous times)
> shorter fights ooc and longer fights ingame to give anything not directly involved in the fight a realistic chance to react to it
> a less tiered initiative system. Right now additional initiative rounds for a char feel too much of a power multiplier and combat oriented characters without those suffer hard
> more ways to personalize magic traditions
> find a niche for technomancers to set them apart from Hackers without just making them techno-magicians
> at least second base for Lofwyr and Hestaby (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[SIN]

I've loved Shadowrun since 2nd Ed. but the simple fact is that 4th Ed. is the first time I've been able to get a regular game going for any length of time. I play with a group of good friends, all (mostly) pretty bright people and regular gamers across a range of systems, but the level of complexity in earlier editions was too much of a barrier for them.

For me then, my big hope is that they continue the slide towards simplicity, slickness and speed of play. I know 4th Ed. isn't perfect, but it will always have a special place for me in that it finally allowed me to play games in a setting I've loved for almost 20 years.

Specifics I'd like to see...

- Make the GM's life easier! More sample goons, more guidance re: nuyen and karma rewards to help keep the game balanced, more sample security set-ups etc. etc.

- Bring the Matrix in line with everything else. Having hackers with crappy mental stats just seems weird. Make attributes matter again please.

- Make the Matrix faster and easier. As has been said by loads of other people, it shouldn't be necessary to go through the whole rigmarole of hacking an entire node for every little action. I don't care if it's not realistic in RL terms, I just want the hacker in the group to have fun, feel effective and not hold everyone else up for an hour when they do stuff.

- Explain the Matrix rules in the BBB so that an idiot like me can understand and use them straight away. It boggles my mind that there was no step-by-step description of how to hack a node in the rules - I ended up making my own, which is on the other forum if anyone's interested (Hacking 101 in GM's Toolkit section). A flow chart or something in the core rulebook please!

- Whilst I'm all for the simplification of magic that 4th Ed. brought, a little more differentiation between traditions would be nice. Make mentor spirits and shamanic masks an integral part of the basic Shaman template again and I'll be happy.

- If they're dead set on going down the maximum gear porn route (which it sounds like they are), more interesting differetiation between different bits of gear would be great. It's been said by others above, but make the choice between different guns/armour say something about the character, not just "this gun is the obvious choice for maximum bonuses".

That's my tuppence worth.

[Draco18s]

Kinda goes counter to the explicit crunch and fluff behind Essence there, chummer. One of the setting's hard rules is that humanity is humanity, and altering that irrevocably reduces it.

Transhumanism doesn't need to violate the setting.

Transhumanism, abbreviated as H+ or h+, is an international intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally transforming the human condition by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities. Transhumanist thinkers study the potential benefits and dangers of emerging technologies that could overcome fundamental human limitations, as well as study the ethical matters involved in developing and using such technologies. They predict that human beings may eventually be able to transform themselves into beings with such greatly expanded abilities as to merit the label "posthuman".

The game can explore the cultural impact of implants and the desire for people to want to implant more and more chrome into their bodies, getting genetic tweaks, and so on even while maintaining a limit on just how much you can tweak someone before they die.

[Patrick Goodman]

speaking solely for myself here:

Keep that crap outta my game. You want transhumanism? Go play Eclipse Phase. It's a phenomenal H+ game (and I mean that sincerely; it's a great game, and it didn't win all those awards by accident). I don't think it has a legitimate place in SR.

[Grinder]

The game can explore the cultural impact of implants and the desire for people to want to implant more and more chrome into their bodies, getting genetic tweaks, and so on even while maintaining a limit on just how much you can tweak someone before they die.

Yup. As long as uploads of minds, sleeving, and morphs/ cortical stacks don't get introduced into SR, it can work.

[CanRay]

Not exactly a font of education, but this quote succinctly describes the Transhumanism/Cyberpunk differences:

"Transhumanism is about how technology will eventually help us overcome the problems that have, up until now, been endemic to human nature. Cyberpunk is about how technology won't." — Stephenls of RPG.Net

[binarywraith]

The game can explore the cultural impact of implants and the desire for people to want to implant more and more chrome into their bodies, getting genetic tweaks, and so on even while maintaining a limit on just how much you can tweak someone before they die.

It's not a matter of how much before they die. It's a matter of anyone capable of astral perception being able to tell that 'ware literally kills part of the recipient's soul, turning them into something less than human. Transhumanist philosophy is objectively -wrong-, in Shadowrun's world.

[KarmaInferno]

I for one want one thing, above all else.

A Glossary of Defined Terms.

No more grey, no more misinterpretation, a specific definition for every stat, rules term, and attribute in the game.

And make sure every writer has a hardcopy stapled to their forehead.

Okay, maybe not that last bit. Maybe.



-k

[All4BigGuns]

And make sure every writer has a hardcopy stapled to their forehead.

I think the supposed "issue" with writers not being in constant communication with each other was explained on the other forum. Believe it was something about a "leak" or something. So long as there aren't any of those, I don't think there will be a problem there.

[UmaroVI]

I for one want one thing, above all else.

A Glossary of Defined Terms.

No more grey, no more misinterpretation, a specific definition for every stat, rules term, and attribute in the game.

And make sure every writer has a hardcopy stapled to their forehead.

Okay, maybe not that last bit. Maybe.



-k

Yes, this. Maybe with duct tape instead of staples.

[SIN]

I think that's fair enough, but remember these guys are paid bugger all for their efforts. I think that the onus should be on CGL to do whatever they can to make it easy for the writers to get these things right. Especially if they're not going to pay them more handsomely for their efforts.

On the subject of published materials, other things I'd like to see in 5e...

- Location / History source books that are actually properly accessible to a new reader. I've been around on and off since 2e and I still struggle with some books. There ought to be a proper "the story so far" bit in products like these.

- Don't shove random chunks of data in random source books. London write up in Conspiracy Theories? Why exactly? I'd much rather have seen that in a dedicated location book, along with other appropriate places. When I buy a book, I'd like it to be roughly "what it says on the tin" and Conspiracy Theories would have been a much better read if they'd stuck to the theme of the first half of the book.

- I imagine that this won't be popular (though I'd like to hear other people's thoughts), but I'd like to see a return to books like the Street Samurai's Catalogue. If we're going down this route of "MOAR GEARZ!", I'd love to see them make the gear genuinely interesting and unique with proper write-ups, nice art-work and shadowtalk style "reviews". I'd happily see less gear in each gear book, but more gear books if they did it like this - much more fun, flavourful and interesting than the Arsenal style tables of numbers.

[nezumi]

I think the supposed "issue" with writers not being in constant communication with each other was explained on the other forum. Believe it was something about a "leak" or something. So long as there aren't any of those, I don't think there will be a problem there.

I don't think that should be an issue for documenting terms and events which are a core part of the already-published setting.

(But yes, ultimately it does come down to the editors on this. Freelancers are just that. They aren't tied to a product. They aren't required to have read all 10,000 pages of your previous products. They write a story or a cool chapter that fits in with the current line, and the *editor* is responsible for fitting that into the previous lore, and making sure the mechanics are all correct.)

- I imagine that this won't be popular (though I'd like to hear other people's thoughts), but I'd like to see a return to books like the Street Samurai's Catalogue.

I've never heard anyone complain about the SSC. It was shorter than current gear books, but few people will need sixty or seventy handguns to choose from. The only issue is that art is expensive. SSC was a short book, but it cost as much as M&M to the end consumer, and probably cost as much to make as well. It would be a gamble on catalyst's part to make another.

[Fatum]

- I imagine that this won't be popular (though I'd like to hear other people's thoughts), but I'd like to see a return to books like the Street Samurai's Catalogue. If we're going down this route of "MOAR GEARZ!", I'd love to see them make the gear genuinely interesting and unique with proper write-ups, nice art-work and shadowtalk style "reviews". I'd happily see less gear in each gear book, but more gear books if they did it like this - much more fun, flavourful and interesting than the Arsenal style tables of numbers.

CGL has already been doing it with the downloadable pdfs that make up the Runner's Black Book.

[SIN]

CGL has already been doing it with the downloadable pdfs that make up the Runner's Black Book.

Ah! Well I haven't looked at any of those, on the assumption that it'd be more tables of stats.

I also completely understand what nezumi's saying re: the cost of art-work and I'd gladly pay the same money I have been paying for less gear presented in a more engaging format. I'd even buy more gear books in total if the content was good, entertainingly written and some effort had been made to make the different items sufficiently unique and interesting both in look & feel and in game effect terms. Perhaps the books could be separated by themes, like in the old days - maybe a Ganger's Guide for street level weaponry, a Street Sammie's Catalogue for more professional shadow stuff etc. etc.

[Fatum]

Well, the quality of the fluff, shadow talk and stats is sometimes debatable, but the general format is the very same.

[Bigity]

I wonder how this wouldn't be Cyberpunk anymore? Let's see the cornerstones of Cyberpunk:

Negative Impact of technology on humanity - check
Fusion of man and machine - the transhumanism aspect that could be expanded on even further - check
Corporate control over society - check
Story focuses on the underground - check - it's the name of the game
Ubiquitous Access to information - wireless matrix rocks - check
Cyberpunk visuals and style - arguably the only one regressing but only if your a fan of that oldschool 80s punk look

The impact has been lessened in the current edition. Also, other technologies are overtaking metal implants as the best way to be augmented.

Transhumanism <> cyberpunk, as has already been explained. CanRay's post says it better than I could

I'll grant you that, but it sure seems subdued lately.

Uh..I'm not so sure. The latest series of published modules dealt with J-pop stars or something? Maybe it was just one. Some of the latest books have focused on stuff WAY above the underground. A whole book about War!, for example.

Hm, not really. Cyberpunk was always iconic with plugging your brain into a computer, at least to me. The wireless stuff isn't nearly as problematic for me as the 'dumbing' down of decking to the level where anyone can do it pretty well, or automated programs can do it for you.

Agreed, it is regressing. Not just different, but in alot of cases, just flat out worse. Again, art being art, this is just my opinion.

Evolution is ok, but SR is becoming something else really, or is very close.

I want mohawks, chrome, steel, leather. I don't want form fitting underwear that stops bullets. I don't want hats that replace a datajack. I don't want rigging to be an extra program a hacker runs.

Again, they are free to develop what they want, I'm just stating like 4E, if 5E is more of the same, they aren't getting any money from me is all.

[Tashiro]

Personally, I want to continue seeing technology and society advance, and I like that Shadowrun dealt with other levels of society. If I want to play a military campaign, I want it viable. If I want to run a black ops campaign, where the PCs are working for the government and playing spy games, I want this viable as well. The core book should cover the street level stuff, but I like that other books let us take a good look at other aspects of the world.

I like that the technology is becoming more ubiquitous -- anyone can become a hacker if they can find the proper programs to use with their computer. Anyone can control their car with the right software. Why not? In my opinion, this is entirely realistic within the context of the setting - and to me, in-world context is important. I'd have stopped playing Shadowrun over a decade ago if the setting didn't evolve and progress.

[Bigity]

And I stopped playing nearly a decade ago because it did.