[X] My Assistant

[Patrick Goodman]

And people who get paid for writing it will do the work they're paid for?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Oh, that's a good one, Fatum!!

[Grinder]

Do YOU feel like going through all of the gear, matching them up with source books from old editions and coming up with dates for them? I sure as hell know I wouldn't, and I wouldn't expect the writers (be they freelance or otherwise) to go through all that. Gives me a headache just thinking about doing such a thing.

Yep, it's a huge task and nothing that will add much value to the game. Apart from a few voices here I've never heard the suggestion or wish that an exact release date of every weapon is provided. And I mean, what's the benefit of it? Does it add much to the game if we know that the Ares Predator 3 has been released on "March 1st, 2066" instead of "2066" or "in the Mid-2060s"?

Then send Hardy an email offering to do it for free if you think it's so easy.

Watch your tone, ok? Why should he do it for free? Even easy freelance jobs should be paid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fatum]

Yep, it's a huge task and nothing that will add much value to the game. Apart from a few voices here I've never heard the suggestion or wish that an exact release date of every weapon is provided. And I mean, what's the benefit of it? Does it add much to the game if we know that the Ares Predator 3 has been released on "March 1st, 2066" instead of "2066" or "in the Mid-2060s"?

You see, the purpose of this is being able to set the game in any year you want. So of course we don't need the data as precise as "the first commercially available Ares Alpha was sold at 14:52:18 on May the 5th, 2056". Just a year it entered production works. And determining that is as simple as taking the equipment books, noting where each peace of equipment is first noticed, and then overlaying the date from the table specifying which book represents which IC time (which already exists). It's literally, as I said, flipping through a dozen books.

[Nath]

I counted as much as 37 books to check for gear throughout the four editions (not counting Metamagic techniques, which would add 4 on top of that).

Establishing that list should have already have netted me 1$, based on Federal Minimum Wage Law.

[All4BigGuns]

Watch your tone, ok? Why should he do it for free? Even easy freelance jobs should be paid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Honestly, that one was out of irritation from people who call any product that isn't absolutely 100% everything they would ever want from any book ever "bad product". To be perfectly honest, the gamer community is getting unbelievably spoiled.

[Umidori]

You don't seem to understand capitalism, BigGuns.

See, the customers create the demand for this type of product. If the game system doesn't appeal to them, they won't buy it. A better product will make more money, while a crappier product will make less. Yes, there may always be some diehard fans who stick with the system, or who are more willing to overlook poorer quality, or who are less concerned with needing higher quality books. But ultimately a crappy product is going to fail in lieu of a better one.

The customers are not the ones responsible if that happens. If Shadowrun goes the way of Earthdawn, it'll definitely be a loss for the gaming community that no one will be putting out new material and that people will slowly stop playing the system. But it'll only happen because the makers of the SR books and materials failed to adequately profit from the demands of the market.

Now, is a single feature going to make or break a game? No, probably not. But at the same time, the playerbase has every right to want features which will make their gaming experience more enjoyable. Calling them spoiled for wanting more features is absurd, even if adding specific features isn't feasible for some reason.

You've gone on and on about how the poor writers are underpaid and overworked and that these requests are unreasonable. Well tough luck! If they don't want to do the job, no one is forcing them! They can go get another job! If the writers don't want to write up the features the players want, fine! Someone else will, or no one else will! Maybe a different game system with different writers will add a similar feature of their own, drawing customers away. Maybe not! Who knows! Capitalism is weird!

You're just playing the White Knight for some reason, arguing against the "unreasonable demands" that the playerbase is placing on the poor, poor writers whom you must protect from the wicked, spoiled, selfish player community. I have no idea why you're doing so, but there you have it.

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

That's not necessarily true Umi, increased quality is not always a surefire way to success. Money is always a factor, and if you pump resources into one aspect you inadvertently have to sacrifice another aspect. It's not how much you want a feature but rather how much would you rather have that feature over another one.
Companies must be able to expect a return on their investment and the higher the initial cost the higher the sales must be to break even. A poignant example for this would be Kingdoms of Amalur, it did by no means badly. But it didn't break even because of the astronomical production cost.
Your argument of competition breeds excellency still have some impact. But I have to ask, what is Shadowrun competing with that would draw their audience away? Well except it's own older editions.
SR have an unique niche and as such it will attract a niche audience.
While the quality of the product may be important for the general well-being of the franchise, it's also constrained in it's budget because of it's niche place in the overall market.

I totally don't know the first thing about economics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

You're just playing the White Knight for some reason, arguing against the "unreasonable demands" that the playerbase is placing on the poor, poor writers whom you must protect from the wicked, spoiled, selfish player community. I have no idea why you're doing so, but there you have it.

You forgot one point, it's an unreasonable demand from a minority of the player base. Most people could fragging care less about seeing a "date produced" on the gear. Sure it might be nice, but it is an overwhelming minority that's demanding it. Quite frankly it isn't worth the extra crap that someone would have to go through to mess with it.

[_Pax._]

All4, you have no way to know what "most people" do or do not want. Not unless you can prove that you have polled a statistically-significant portion of the SR playerbase not just those of us who frequent the Dumpshock forums. So please don't talk like you do know such things.

[All4BigGuns]

All4, you have no way to know what "most people" do or do not want. Not unless you can prove that you have polled a statistically-significant portion of the SR playerbase not just those of us who frequent the Dumpshock forums. So please don't talk like you do know such things.

Then how about getting on them for acting like most do want those things?

[_Pax._]

Then how about getting on them for acting like most do want those things?

I haven't noticed anyone say the words "most people want", except you. I admit I haven't gone LOOKING for it either, so I might have missed it.

Instead, what I've seen is the folks in favor of it say many people would like it, but that's not at all the same thing.

And we both know that you're intelligent enough to know that already, All4.

[All4BigGuns]

I haven't noticed anyone say the words "most people want", except you. I admit I haven't gone LOOKING for it either, so I might have missed it.

Instead, what I've seen is the folks in favor of it say many people would like it, but that's not at all the same thing.

And we both know that you're intelligent enough to know that already, All4.

Also there's the point that "Umi" was acting like not having a "production date" on every piece of gear automatically makes a product "crappy" (his word).

[Umidori]

Quite frankly it isn't worth the extra crap that someone would have to go through to mess with it.

See, why does this bother you, specifically? No one's asking you to do any work.

You happen to feel that it's too much work for too little reward. But who the hell are you? If a portion of the playerbase, even a minority portion, asks for a specific feature they'd like to see, what business of it is yours how much or how little work it would be to implement and how much or how little payoff it would have? Leave that judgement to the writers, and to the people responsible for making the new edition of SR.

Why should you care what some portion of the playerbase, even a minority portion, asks for in the new edition? Why should you be so bothered by such requests, unreasonable or not? How does it affect you at all, when you're completely divorced from any of the decision making process or any of the writing going into the new edition? Why the righteous indignation over something you have no part in and no influence over?

You've said your piece, your opinion has been heard. Let's all move on now, and continue the thread as it was intended - discussing things we'd like to see in the new edition of Shadowrun. That includes me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[_Pax._]

Also there's the point that "Umi" was acting like not having a "production date" on every piece of gear automatically makes a product "crappy" (his word).

He's entitled to that opinion. I don't happen to agree with it, but him having that opinion doesn't mean you get to break out the "most people" fallacy, without being called on it.

[Wakshaani]

I counted as much as 37 books to check for gear throughout the four editions (not counting Metamagic techniques, which would add 4 on top of that).

Establishing that list should have already have netted me 1$, based on Federal Minimum Wage Law.

This thing is both brilliant and soul-wrenching, but you reminded me of it.

http://blakefallconroy.com/18.html

As an aside, note that writers are paid based on words-on-page. Research is unpaid labor. Combining the two, I believe that most of the freelancers fall shy of min. wage. It's a labor of love first, job second, and career for very, very few.

(Note: this isn't a shortfall of Catalyst, or even gaming! There's a report out there how there are about two hundred writers in the US who make a living at it; the rest have at least a part time, and usually full-time, job, and write on the side for a little extra money. I need to track that one down again. Hmm...

[Fatum]

I'd like to note that apparently enough demand exists among the player base to warrant a whole book being published about playing in the 50ies. Which is immensely more work for quite a lot more people than just writing down production dates for gear.

[Grinder]

All points regarding production dates for gear have been made. Move on.

[Shortstraw]

I would like magic qualities not to count toward the starting qualities limit but to cost a lot more (or something like that).

[ShadowJackal]

Well then.

My hope for dragon romance novels is growing with each post...

[bannockburn]

I would like magic qualities not to count toward the starting qualities limit but to cost a lot more (or something like that).

This sounds intriguing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
What I would also like is a necessity for mages to own a spell formula if they want to have the corresponding spell at character creation

[Draco18s]

My hope for dragon romance novels is growing with each post...

I'd buy that.
<..<
(Actually, I have before).

[ShadowJackal]

I'd buy that.
<..<
(Actually, I have before).

Oooh...

Don't tempt me to write "Fifty Shades Of Gold and Bronze". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (I don't know if I could get through that without laughing hysterically the whole way...)

[Draco18s]

Oooh...

Don't tempt me to write "Fifty Shades Of Gold and Bronze". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (I don't know if I could get through that without laughing hysterically the whole way...)

Team up with Chrysalis. Ask him about his slash fic.
*Blatant carrot dangle*

[ShadowJackal]

Team up with Chrysalis. Ask him about his slash fic.
*Blatant carrot dangle*

I'm not sure if I should be excited or scared that there's more than one person who'd enjoy that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

I'm not sure if I should be excited or scared that there's more than one person who'd enjoy that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

He says to someone who knows someone who writes porn stories on commission. $10.00 per 1000 words (or less*)

*Depends on volume and type (after 5000 words there's a discount, rough is cheaper than refined, etc).