[X] My Assistant

[CanRay]

I wasn't aware that this thread ("5E Wish List") is about MMOs?

Which Shadowrun MMO? The one coming out soon, or the one in-universe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Micawber]

I wasn't aware that this thread ("5E Wish List") is about MMOs?

Which Shadowrun MMO? The over-ambitious one with the energy-bridges or the comic-persiflage retro one?

[Grinder]

Blabla. Still not topic of this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Micawber]

Blabla. Still not topic of this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Ok - let me rephrase that to better fit the topic of the thread:

What I DON'T wish for is a 5th edition with an over-emphasized link to either one of the half-baked MMOs. It was hinted that at least Shadowrun Online will have a strong influence on the 2074 timeline in that they will make one of the Big 10 fall...

I really don't like that.
It's ok to have these facettes of the Pen&Paper forged into videogames to cater to an audience that is ok with not having the whole package/the full experience. For me it is not - especially if they throw things like energy-bridges at me in the very first trailer that have never existed in that form anywhere in the Shadowrun Universe. Thats not beeing "true to the game". What I fear now is a kind of interactive relationship between the MMOs and the two SR timelines - kinda like AEG is doing it with the 'Legend of the Five Rings' CCG and the corresponding Pen&Paper (which for them works as those two games have grown together since their humble beginnings).

[Draco18s]

either one of the half-baked MMOs

There's only one MMO.

The other game is single player.

[Maelstrome]

i know im late to the party. and im certain plenty will disagree with this.
what i would want to see out of 5th ed is for it to be a revised sr3 without variable target numbers. instead of that have variable hits to succeed.

personally i want technos gone, and otaku and old school deckers back.

either way ill probably stop being a dinosaur and play 5th when it releases.

[binarywraith]

i know im late to the party. and im certain plenty will disagree with this.
what i would want to see out of 5th ed is for it to be a revised sr3 without variable target numbers. instead of that have variable hits to succeed.

personally i want technos gone, and otaku and old school deckers back.

either way ill probably stop being a dinosaur and play 5th when it releases.

I'm going to take a look at it, as I'm itching to GM again, but if the fluff is as bad as the 4e fluff (Bogota Is Not A Port City) I'll pass.

[CanRay]

Bogota! was not CGL's finest hour for a lot of reasons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

Bogota! was not CGL's finest hour for a lot of reasons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

But all of the real problems are in the "fluff" sections.

[Halinn]

But all of the real problems are in the "fluff" sections.

The MRSI software system, and the Slow spell is not quite the best written "crunch" material, either.

[Fatum]

If an Ares Alpha is the greatest small arm that has or will ever be created, and you can pick one up on chargen, then it's boring.

Pffffffft. There's Ares Bravo! Instead of a grenade launcher it has... hold on to your helmet!.. a stun baton!

And when the production costs go up, so does the price point for the book. Higher cost for the book loses sales, which pushes the price *even higher*.

I agree with your general logic, but this is not how the market works.
Also, as far as pricing goes, let's take a conservative estimate of 80 working hours at 6$ an hour. That's some 500$ cost to be shared among thousands of buyers. Not exactly a luxury. Full-color full-page illustrations can cost as much, and the new books have those aplenty.

[nezumi]

I agree with your general logic, but this is not how the market works.

You're going to have to actually provide some evidence (or at least an argument) if you disagree.

There are certain price points beyond which most buyers are less likely to buy your product. Most people are willing to buy a book which looks interesting if it's $5 or less, even if they don't necessarily plan to even play it (PS+ used this very aggressively low pricing to their advantage with Eclipse Phase). $20 is an easy sell. $40 is average (for core books). $60 is a tough sell, and the buying market is limited to people who know they'll play. Not many people impulse buy at the $60 range. Above that, you get into collectors and die-hard fans.

If you increase your book from $40 to $60 (50% increase in gross income), but your sales drop by 50%, that's ultimately a gross loss.

Also, as far as pricing goes, let's take a conservative estimate of 80 working hours at 6$ an hour. That's some 500$ cost to be shared among thousands of buyers. Not exactly a luxury. Full-color full-page illustrations can cost as much, and the new books have those aplenty.

I'm not sure where you got those numbers from (or even what you're referring to). You have to be talking about some specific activity that should be incorporated into the book, not the actual writing of the book itself, right? Are you talking about creation dates for weapons still? Review of canon conflicts?

[Fatum]

You're going to have to actually provide some evidence (or at least an argument) if you disagree.

That's simple smithsonian economics on self-regulating markets, what is there to prove. If you're selling a good that's too expensive for the majority of the clientelle to buy, which is limiting your gross income, raising the price further is further limiting your profits, not improving them. See "market equilibrium", etc.

I'm not sure where you got those numbers from (or even what you're referring to). You have to be talking about some specific activity that should be incorporated into the book, not the actual writing of the book itself, right? Are you talking about creation dates for weapons still? Review of canon conflicts?

Creation dates for gear, naturally.
And frankly, choosing between a book with a lot of (expensive) large color illustrations and one with good fluff and crunch but b/w interior illustrations like the previous editions had, why would anyone choose the former?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

And frankly, choosing between a book with a lot of (expensive) large color illustrations and one with good fluff and crunch but b/w interior illustrations like the previous editions had, why would anyone choose the former?

(female voice) But it is more beautiful! (/female voice)
SCNR XD

What was it called, style over substance? There has to be some reason why apple products sell so well.

[Stahlseele]

(female voice) But it is more beautiful! (/female voice)
SCNR XD

What was it called, style over substance? There has to be some reason why apple products sell so well.

Because it means they can show off how much money they have.
Paying more for less because you have more money than brains.

Same with rolex watches.
"Look at my Rolex! It shows me the time and the date and it cost me 2500 bucks!"
"Look at my Swatch! It shows me the time for several capitals and date and has a stop watch and alarm and is water proof up to 200m depth! and it cost me 250 bucks!"

[CanRay]

Timex, the watch that's Bruce Willis in comparison to all others. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[nezumi]

Regarding the illustrations; each has a place. The color illustrations in the core book are really inspirational. An image is worth a thousand words (and doesn't take as much work for the reader). Good illustrations include that fluff.

That's simple smithsonian economics on self-regulating markets, what is there to prove. If you're selling a good that's too expensive for the majority of the clientelle to buy, which is limiting your gross income, raising the price further is further limiting your profits, not improving them. See "market equilibrium", etc.

Yes. Are we agreeing?

Creation dates for gear, naturally.

For that specifically yes, I agree. I posted such myself, that the list of books to review isn't that long. 80 hours is crazy long for that. Researching would be probably 2-4 hours, to establish which edition the gun came up during. I don't think there are any significant complications which would affect 'making up the month and year'. Editing is minor (I'm imagining this as a single line). Layout is negligible, assuming this is a new book, not an update to a previous one.

[All4BigGuns]

The MRSI software system, and the Slow spell is not quite the best written "crunch" material, either.

Maybe not perfect (nothing written/created by a human being will be), but not as bad as some would have people believe. Just because something CAN be abused doesn't mean it WILL be abused on a common basis. If you refuse to create something just because it CAN be abused, then you are limiting yourself needlessly. Just smack the rare ones that do with a phone book and it's all good.

[Halinn]

For that specifically yes, I agree. I posted such myself, that the list of books to review isn't that long. 80 hours is crazy long for that. Researching would be probably 2-4 hours, to establish which edition the gun came up during. I don't think there are any significant complications which would affect 'making up the month and year'. Editing is minor (I'm imagining this as a single line). Layout is negligible, assuming this is a new book, not an update to a previous one.

Some fluff text on equipment mentions that it's something recently introduced, or even specify a year. One would have to check through every book that a piece of gear is in to be sure, and if it mentions it being recent or just having gotten on the market, there's some extra time checking what year the book is set in. I suppose it's not too long if you limit it to just guns, but when you have to go through it for every piece of gear? That adds up.

[binarywraith]

For things on my wishlist :

Someone in the writing department to take fifteen seconds to consider that RF signals propagate through air exponentially slower than light travels through fiber optic cable or electrical pulses travel through copper.

Then apply the resulting lag to the difference in reaction times between IC and commlink hackers.

[Draco18s]

If you increase your book from $40 to $60 (50% increase in gross income), but your sales drop by 50%, that's ultimately a gross loss.

It's called elasticity.

The cool thing about it is that you can figure out what the best price point is based on similar products. If you know that core rules books sell optimally at $40, then sell it at $40 regardless of how much it should cost. Because otherwise you're loosing money (it doesn't matter how much you spent making it, you're optimizing the income from sales, which while related to product quality, functions independently*).

*There's no way to predict how the quality will effect the elasticity of the good, and there's no way to alter the quality later...

[All4BigGuns]

For things on my wishlist :

Someone in the writing department to take fifteen seconds to consider that RF signals propagate through aid exponentially slower than light travels through fiber optic cable or electrical pulses travel through copper.

Then apply the resulting lag to the difference in reaction times between IC and commlink hackers.

Why? How would this make playing a hacker more fun?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Because you have a motivation to infiltrate the facility and use an optical tap or so to directly jack into their network.

[All4BigGuns]

Because you have a motivation to infiltrate the facility and use an optical tap or so to directly jack into their network.

You don't need to add anything to the game for that. It's called wi-fi inhibiting materials, and those are already available, try again.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Get a micro-drone with a microwave link inside. Wi-fi inhabiting materials defeated.