[X] My Assistant

[Fatum]

Regarding the illustrations; each has a place. The color illustrations in the core book are really inspirational. An image is worth a thousand words (and doesn't take as much work for the reader). Good illustrations include that fluff.

I find the b/w art from the old editions much more inspirational and, if you will, "cyberpunkish", instead of the current "generic bright future" feel in AE.

Yes. Are we agreeing?

We'd be agreeing if

And when the production costs go up, so does the price point for the book. Higher cost for the book loses sales, which pushes the price *even higher*.

was how market equilibrium works, but it's not.

Maybe not perfect (nothing written/created by a human being will be), but not as bad as some would have people believe. Just because something CAN be abused doesn't mean it WILL be abused on a common basis.

It's not imperfect, it's horrible. A lot of stuff in War! can't be used as written at all because it's either mechanically absurd, ruins verisimilitude or just fails to scale with the rest of the system. I believe we've been over this numerous times, though.

Get a micro-drone with a microwave link inside. Wi-fi inhabiting materials defeated.

Get a microdrone with optical tap.
In my opinion, if there's a way to return to wires, it's lowering reaction (to represent lag) and limiting transfer speeds (to represent quite final bandwidth) when hacking over wireless.

[S.N.D.]

Some fluff text on equipment mentions that it's something recently introduced, or even specify a year. One would have to check through every book that a piece of gear is in to be sure, and if it mentions it being recent or just having gotten on the market, there's some extra time checking what year the book is set in. I suppose it's not too long if you limit it to just guns, but when you have to go through it for every piece of gear? That adds up.

The benefit with doing this in a new edition is that it doesn't *necessarily* have to agree with previous editions, only with itself. If it's internally consistent and fits the intended use, (namely, allowing GMs to choose from different time periods in the 6th world,) then it's golden. It would up the word count a good bit to have things like "After crash 2.0, the use of ____ dropped off significantly," but I think it's worth the words.

That's because the point, the real reason to do this work, is to open up the setting's past and to unstick the releases from linear time.
It's just a minor addition to allow for a new dimension of gameplay.

[_Pax._]

Because you have a motivation to infiltrate the facility and use an optical tap or so to directly jack into their network.

No.

Then you've have a motivation to go back to the "bad old days" of the wired Matrix ... where teh Hacker stayed home, and the entirety of the Matrix was a separate campaign run in parallel.

No. Thank. You.

[Nath]

Well, the whole point of global computer network is to access things from afar. The actual difference is that on 1st and 2nd edition, the decker was doing it from home, while in 4th edition, the hacker doesn't even have to leave the bar where the team met the Johnson.

[Draco18s]

No.

Then you've have a motivation to go back to the "bad old days" of the wired Matrix ... where teh Hacker stayed home, and the entirety of the Matrix was a separate campaign run in parallel.

No. Thank. You.

Or we could make everything wireless, and the hacker can stay home and hack anything from anywhere and the entirety of the Matrix is a separate campaign run in parallel.

(Hint: Wi-fi inhibiting paint stops a hacker in 4 less than an isolated network in 3)

[Lionhearted]

I always go under the assumption that secure systems are wi-fi disabled, thus you must be physically present to access the network.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I always go under the assumption that secure systems are wi-fi disabled, thus you must be physically present to access the network.

Indeed... This is the easiest explanation. Just because the majority of the world's Mundane communications is easily accessible, it does not mean that secured systems are just as easily accesible. *shrug*

The problem with both editions is that the issues are both easily bypassed so that a Hacker can stay at home while the rest of the team runs on the locatuon and sets up a remote accessible tap. In 4th, I have never had the inclination to do so; however in 2nd/3rd, it was very, very, common practice.

[Tashiro]

I don't know, it makes me think of Ghost in the Shell. The hacker can stay home if they really want to and have the resources - if the hacker wants to be useful in the field (rather than someone every has to protect), they'll want to have skills other than hacking. I don't mind this - then again, I know how to work with characters who are split up, so it doesn't bother me so much.

[Lionhearted]

Well hacker that stays at home run the risk* of having his signal traced back there and have the door kicked in.

* Yes true mirrorshade runners will take counter measures against it, but sometimes even they should be in so far over their heads that it might happen.

[_Pax._]

Easiest countermeasure to that was always to go to a cheap-ass coffin motel as "John Smith" or whatever, and hack from there.

[Tashiro]

Hmm. Actually, one thing I'm considering is the use of microdrones (like in Unwired). Send in a bunch of microdrones, have one connect to a specific line and broadcast, and let the other ones help to create a line out of a 'protected' zone, so the hacker can do work from the vehicle / home / safe house.

Though the thing is, in 207X, how often would a system be completely isolated? A completely isolated system would have to be one where even workers inside the corporation (including managers and such) have to physically walk into the area to log in and access it. It is not available to most people, and if someone is in another location, they can't access it at all. "I'm sorry, Mister Lofwyr, it's in a sealed location. I can't send you a copy of the data. I'll need to copy it, then send you the copy later." I can see a partially sealed system however - one where you need to access specific computers, and from these, log in to get access to the system. But this means the hacker just needs to find that computer through the Matrix, log into it remotely, and then from there access the system. A bit troublesome, but viable.

And the thing is, even with 'wireless', that only goes so far. The hacker just needs to tap the matrix from someplace local to them - once they've done that, they can use the full matrix, wireless or not. I doubt every single part of the matrix is wireless, but a combination of wired and unwired - and as long as the hacker has some way to get online, they're golden. For example - I have a wireless network here at home. But I've got two computers that are physically connected to the network since they don't have wireless themselves. My wireless laptop is able to contact the router, to either talk to the internet (wired) or to my other computer (wired). I'm pretty certain the matrix of Shadowrun works the same way. So, even if a location is 'wireless', it probably still has a matrix connection (since the people inside need to communicate with the outside world somehow), just that the connection is wired. That shouldn't slow a hacker down that much, really.

Again, I'm thinking GitS.
Mostly, I just follow the rule of 'is it realistic?' -- how much benefit would a corporation have of keeping a place completely blocked off from the matrix, versus being able to have superiors able to access the information there remotely, or to have specific high-level workers (managers, scientists, etc) from being able to access the information from other locations so they can continue to work, trade information, what-have-you remotely? Considering some of the hacks done now, I'm figuring human nature isn't going to change that much, and most places will still be accessible via matrix - though you may have specific times they're shut off (such as 'work's done, turn off all the computers'). In such a case, you need to hack when the place is open and on, or you need to send someone in to turn the computers on for you.

[Lionhearted]

Well, if you only allowed for remote access to devices within the network running on separate channels IE: the devices only communicate with eachother and not with the matrix as a whole. Surely that will be possible if you got a private satellite network in place?
That way the prospective hacker couldn't access the device directly over the matrix but would rather need to either aquire a device linked to the network or try and tap into the network itself.

[Fatum]

And what exactly is stopping a hacker from using that frequency from the comfort of his home? Authentication measures? Those are all but non-existent in SR.

[Lionhearted]

He have to find the frequency first?

[Fatum]

You say that as if it presents any kind of a problem.
Even modern systems use complex patterns of channel-hopping, and those are still not safe.

[Lionhearted]

Well how would he interface with it?
The commlink connects to the matrix, this system runs separate from the matrix, thus it's not able to be located on the matrix.
He would need to find another way to interface and locate the network, then he would still have to jump through hoops battling IC/Spiders.
I don't know how these things work, but it makes sense to me.

[Fatum]

Same way he does with the rest of the electronics.
You see, the radioelectronic spectrum (that is, the frequency range we can use) is rather limited. The limits are not technological, but rather physical - simply there because of the laws of nature. So scanning the entirety of the spectrum available is not really all that difficult. Actually, there's even a radio frequency scanner available in Core, and using unusual frequencies is an upgrade for commlinks in Unwired which makes them a tiny bit harder to find (which allows us to presume that the scanner really scans even through the frequencies not normally used for Matrix communication).
A system built on hopping between unusual frequencies could be viable for a while, until the intruders learned the algorithms used to choose the channels to hop to, but with Shadowrun intrusion methods development level that wouldn't keep it safe for long. The only exception could be some super-secret systems used for maybe seconds in a year, like nuclear launch command transmission systems - those would be hard to pinpoint because there'd usually be no signal to find.

[Tashiro]

Well how would he interface with it?
The commlink connects to the matrix, this system runs separate from the matrix, thus it's not able to be located on the matrix.
He would need to find another way to interface and locate the network, then he would still have to jump through hoops battling IC/Spiders.
I don't know how these things work, but it makes sense to me.

I don't realistically think many things are going to be separate from the matrix. Any project is going to have some matrix presence, even if it is a single hardwire, simply because people outside the building who have a vested interest in it will want to remain informed. Now, inside the building, there's probably a matrix hub, providing wireless for the people inside. The hardwire would provide information to the hub, program updates, and allow those outside to be able to communicate to those inside - who would have a very 'sterile' matrix to work from otherwise (limited programs, a lot of IC, etc). I'd bet that hardwire would be crawling with IC, too -- a hacker would have to go through that point to get in, and then have to work inside the matrix inside the building to get to where he wants to go.

But, let's say that there's no hardwire - and that the hub inside the building is isolated. The best bet, then, would be to have a running team hook up a drone someplace where it could access the information inside, then transmit it outside. Basically, get a drone to connect with the group inside, turn the drone on, run a wire out someplace where the hacker gets the signal, and you're good to go. It's a lot safer than having a squishy hacker going in with you.

[Nath]

Having worked in the defense industry, I can tell you that nowadays, it is quite common to have wireless communication strictly banned and sensitive work done on a separate network with no physical connection to the Internet.

In turn, there are now Trojan Horses who wait for any USB storage device to be connected to propagate and send data back home once they find something matching their search keywords. But it still would preclude real-time hacking.

[Lionhearted]

Thanks for the explanation Fatum, I don't know nearly enough about communication technology to think of appropriate technobabble to circumvent that... First thing that springs to mind is if you were to expand the spectrum outside of radiowaves, kind of like wireless fiberoptics. Not sure if that's even possible. The last time I read about wireless electricity was when reading about Tesla's last project, that had some really heavy technical stuff but I think the consensus was that ionising the atmosphere is a bad idea.

[binarywraith]

Get a microdrone with optical tap.
In my opinion, if there's a way to return to wires, it's lowering reaction (to represent lag) and limiting transfer speeds (to represent quite final bandwidth) when hacking over wireless.

It's the only thing that makes logical sense. I mean, even if you figure that between SR3 and SR4 they figured out some awesome data compression algorithm to make transmitting megapulses of data wirelessly efficient enough to be worthwhile, that same technology is still going to be exponentially faster over wires because of the basic laws of physics.

To assume a megacorp wouldn't brutally and mercilessly use that advantage to give their network security the edge is basically the system giving hackers a gimmie to make them viable.

Thanks for the explanation Fatum, I don't know nearly enough about communication technology to think of appropriate technobabble to circumvent that... First thing that springs to mind is if you were to expand the spectrum outside of radiowaves, kind of like wireless fiberoptics. Not sure if that's even possible. The last time I read about wireless electricity was when reading about Tesla's last project, that had some really heavy technical stuff but I think the consensus was that ionising the atmosphere is a bad idea.

In short, it isn't. Fiberoptics are light down a glass thread, the only way to duplicate that 'wirelessly' would be point-to-point lasers, which only work line of sight over short distances (without being powerful enough to essentially be a cutting torch) and are subject to atmospheric conditions. Considering the amount of rain, fog, and straight-up smog in 2070's Seattle, that's pretty much guaranteed lag.

[Tashiro]

I don't know. We're constantly firing lasers at the moon and taking readings, even with atmosphere in the way. That's happening now. And now we're discussing sending information between two points without having it pass through the space in between. I don't think we're really going to need to worry about 'lag' too much by 2070. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Nath]

I don't know. We're constantly firing lasers at the moon and taking readings, even with atmosphere in the way.

"Taking readings" is different from "downloading a high-resolution movie". Most of the signal is lost on the way to the Moon and back, severely limiting the rate at which you receive information.

And now we're discussing sending information between two points without having it pass through the space in between. I don't think we're really going to need to worry about 'lag' too much by 2070. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As soon as such technology would be made available, the entire point of connecting to a global meshed network would disappear. Each corporations would have devices directly connecting eah of their facilities, and no reason to accept any connection from outside.

[binarywraith]

As soon as such technology would be made available, the entire point of connecting to a global meshed network would disappear. Each corporations would have devices directly connecting each of their facilities, and no reason to accept any connection from outside.

Yep. The greater 'public' Matrix being essentially relegated to cat pictures and simsense porn, while the corporate systems go to fully closed networks with single points of connection for the entire corp intranet to the Matrix that are so heavily defended that even a rogue AI is going to have trouble breaking all that ice.

[All4BigGuns]

It's not imperfect, it's horrible. A lot of stuff in War! can't be used as written at all because it's either mechanically absurd, ruins verisimilitude or just fails to scale with the rest of the system. I believe we've been over this numerous times, though.

You and a few--very vocal--others may not like the source book, but stop using hyperbole to try and force others into your line of thought for the book.