[X] My Assistant

[bannockburn]

You and a few--very vocal--others may not like the source book, but stop using hyperbole to try and force others into your line of thought for the book.

So, you'd say that grenade bags with a higher damage code than tacnukes are 'good rules'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This is not even hyperbole, though I fail to see how hyperbole can force anyone to do anything.

[Fatum]

"Taking readings" is different from "downloading a high-resolution movie". Most of the signal is lost on the way to the Moon and back, severely limiting the rate at which you receive information.

Absolutely. Plus the machinery we use to scan the Moon is not exactly pocket-portable.

As soon as such technology would be made available, the entire point of connecting to a global meshed network would disappear. Each corporations would have devices directly connecting eah of their facilities, and no reason to accept any connection from outside.

There are laser beam communicators in SR; and narrow-burst radio transmission is available in RL even now. The thing is building your own global network instead of using the one the whole of humanity shares tends to be a hit on your bottom line much more than a hack here or there.

You and a few--very vocal--others may not like the source book, but stop using hyperbole to try and force others into your line of thought for the book.

I have a better idea: stop ordering people around. We've been over it already.
Btw, facts do not change just because you don't like them. And a good half of stuff in War! being unusable is a fact.

[All4BigGuns]

So, you'd say that grenade bags with a higher damage code than tacnukes are 'good rules'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This is not even hyperbole, though I fail to see how hyperbole can force anyone to do anything.

I said try, and every time someone brings up using anything from that source book, someone who doesn't like it swoops in and starts talking trash and exaggerating to get the person to not use it. Fine, you don't like it. Shut up about it and let other people who either do like it or are neutral to it--I'm actually in the second part of those--in peace.

[Lionhearted]

It's not so much hyperbole but rather consumer awareness. The evaluation of a product, whether good or bad helps the consumer to do an informed purchase decision. You shouldn't make a decision based on a single source as there is bound to be bias, but a general negative attitude towards a product can be indicative of the overall quality of the product. This being the internet you should take every opinion on anything with a truck worth of salt.

[Fatum]

I said try, and every time someone brings up using anything from that source book, someone who doesn't like it swoops in and starts talking trash and exaggerating to get the person to not use it. Fine, you don't like it. Shut up about it and let other people who either do like it or are neutral to it--I'm actually in the second part of those--in peace.

Nobody told you not to use the books you like. It's just that the statements you're making, like

But all of the real problems are in the "fluff" sections.

are simply false. You don't want people arguing that War! was terrible - you don't try to glorify it in an unrelated thread.

[Sengir]

You and a few--very vocal--others may not like the source book, but stop using hyperbole to try and force others into your line of thought for the book.

Doesn't it feel a bit embarassing to play the fanboi for something when even the makers agreed it needed fixing? I mean you obviously believe that everything CGL does is a work of great wisdom, yet you also imply their go-ahead for Pegasus' errata was unnecessary -- in fact, you claim that any errata is useless. Something does not add up in your logic...

[All4BigGuns]

Nobody told you not to use the books you like. It's just that the statements you're making, like
are simply false. You don't want people arguing that War! was terrible - you don't try to glorify it in an unrelated thread.

Somebody has to try to undo the damage the haters are doing to try to at least get things back to neutral.

[Fatum]

Somebody has to try to undo the damage the haters are doing to try to at least get things back to neutral.

A bad book does not deserve neutral reviews. Neither are you helping bringing it up without any arguments in its favour.

[nezumi]

I find the b/w art from the old editions much more inspirational and, if you will, "cyberpunkish", instead of the current "generic bright future" feel in AE.

I don't know what AE is, but I understand your point. Still, full-page B&W art is still pricey. I'd be happy with art and fluff like we saw in the Street Samurai Catalog, but I understand that price continues to be a factor, even with that.

We'd be agreeing if
...
was how market equilibrium works, but it's not.

I really don't have time to argue with people who don't bother justifying their own points, and I'm not sure that it's relevant to the thread, so I'm happy to just leave this.

[Fatum]

I don't know what AE is, but I understand your point. Still, full-page B&W art is still pricey. I'd be happy with art and fluff like we saw in the Street Samurai Catalog, but I understand that price continues to be a factor, even with that.

Anniversary Edition. And while bw art can be pricey, color art is more expensive still. The difference in price can be significant enough, especially if we're counting the dimes that we're paying to the rules authors.

I really don't have time to argue with people who don't bother justifying their own points, and I'm not sure that it's relevant to the thread, so I'm happy to just leave this.

"It's too expensive to sell well so the price will increase" is a line of reasoning too obviously contradicting the ideas of market self-regulation for the counter-argument referring to that idea to need further justification. But you're right, it's hardly related to the thread's topic. Let's drop it.

[Halinn]

It's the only thing that makes logical sense. I mean, even if you figure that between SR3 and SR4 they figured out some awesome data compression algorithm to make transmitting megapulses of data wirelessly efficient enough to be worthwhile, that same technology is still going to be exponentially faster over wires because of the basic laws of physics.

I assume it's because the Crash allowed them to make a clean break with existing technology, which means that they didn't have to worry much about backwards compatibility, which is an issue in computing right now. For example, the size of the packets we send and receive is dictated by decades old network speeds, and because each new level of technology had to be backwards compatible, we're stuck with upgrading the underlying tech at a glacial pace.

[bannockburn]

An actual wish:
I hope there will be no quasi-apocalyptic break event this time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

Was there such things in 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd?

With horrors out of the question I'd imagine it be pretty calm this time around... Well barring any escalating global conflict or deus ex machina.

[bannockburn]

No, but there was one from 3rd to 4th. It was okay once, but it gets overdone quickly.

[binarywraith]

I assume it's because the Crash allowed them to make a clean break with existing technology, which means that they didn't have to worry much about backwards compatibility, which is an issue in computing right now. For example, the size of the packets we send and receive is dictated by decades old network speeds, and because each new level of technology had to be backwards compatible, we're stuck with upgrading the underlying tech at a glacial pace.

The problem is the underlying physics, not compatibility. Wireless transmission is never going to be faster than a fiber-optic cable, simply because the speed of radio waves is never going to be a fraction of that of light.

Beyond that, the reason we don't upgrade the underlying tech is because it is absurdly expensive to do so. With modern materials, it costs roughly $50k per linear mile to run fiber alone, and last-mile fiber connections are the major limiting factor in getting exponential increases in consumer speeds. Offering that last-mile service needs to be incredibly lucrative in order for ISPs to lay out the investment in that cabling, plus all the infrastructure to actually route for it.

Expand that out to replacing the entire grid at once, and you soon start to realize that even bigger-than-governments Megacorps wouldn't start over from scratch. They couldn't afford to, with the kind of loss of profit they'd take by not having a working Matrix in the meantime.

[Nath]

The problem is the underlying physics, not compatibility. Wireless transmission is never going to be faster than a fiber-optic cable, simply because the speed of radio waves is never going to be a fraction of that of light.

Err, no. Radio waves and lights both are electromagnetic radiations that travel at the same speed.

[Fatum]

Actually, wireless transmission will always be slower than wired because of inherently higher levels of background noise. And signal interference. And radiowave properties like self-interference or atmospheric reflection or you get the idea.

[binarywraith]

Err, no. Radio waves and lights both are electromagnetic radiations that travel at the same speed.

In a vacuum.

[Fatum]

In a vacuum.

If anything, they travel slower in wires. It's still negligible compared to other considerations.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I feel the need to address a post by Bull from earlier.

As Missions developer, here's my viewpoint (And the general CGL viewpoint).

Deltaware is not something runners are supposed to be able to easily get after a handful of runs. The fat that there are still only a couple dozen clinics in the world that can even install Delta backs that up. It's not something your neighborhood Street Doc is capable of installing.

Deltaware comes after YEARS of running. You'll notice that even in Street Legends, where many characters are 1000+ Karma characters, few have Deltaware.

Simply put, I don't ever expect to see someone sit down at an official Missions game with any Deltaware, and if they do I expect the GM to do a character audit. Maybe, if it's a really long running character, a couple pieces of Delta. Low end stuff. Eyes and ears, stuff that's somewhat cheap. Delta Wired Reflexes or Move By Wire? Not a chance.

Deltaware is up there with things like the jets and tanks. They're not really stuff your average Shadowrunner ever gets to play with.

Bull, (and generally speaking, CGL, then,) have you ever heard of a game called the Iron Kingdoms RPG? I could understand if you haven't, it's fairly obscure, if very awesome.

Here is the cover of the first version of it, from way back in 2004. Evidently they have a new version, here is the cover of that, too.

Now, you may, from the cover, rightly infer that the Iron Kingdoms are a fantasy setting with steampunk elements. You may also notice the gigantic mechanical thing following those two prominent characters around.

It's called a Steamjack - well, that one is properly referred to as a Warjack, which is a Steamjack that is armed and intended for use in combat. Point is, it's a big steam-powered fantasy robot that runs on steam and is controlled by magic. They're quite expensive, unless you're putting yours together from a cheaper industrial Laborjack that you're slowly upgrading over time, and they are very, very awesome.

Indeed, it's Steamjacks that put the Metal in "Full Metal Fantasy."

A long time ago, on the Privateer Press forums, in the RPG section, there was considerable debate about things like Steamjacks; after all, they're expensive, things of an industrial revolution, not really in the wealth-by-level range of any adventurer who would find one meaningfully useful to have and field, as the Iron Kingdoms RPG was based on OGL. There was one poster, a game-master, who was absolutely adamant that players should never, ever, get their hands on a proper Warjack, because it was, you know, military equipment, and that they should be slapped down immediately should they attempt to turn a laborjack into a Warjack.

Then I felt the need to point out that the name of the game was "Full Metal Fantasy." Take away the Warjacks, and the Iron Kingdoms are just a d20-based industrial-revolution-meets-greenskinned-characters setting, and not even a good one at that. Steamjacks, moreso than any other gadgets in the setting, are what make it Full Metal Fantasy. Telling players they live in the same world as those things, but they're never, ever, going to get to use them for themselves, is not only cruel: it defeats the purpose of playing the game. In the hands of NPCs only, Steamjacks might as well be an iron golem, a fancy pile of stats for the players to crush or run away from. Dress it up as a Steamjack, dress it up as a Warforged, dress it up as a battle Droid, it doesn't matter. It's just there to be killed and looted.

It's only when the players get to play with the big toys that they get to be fun. That is how players realize "Hey, we're big time now, we've hit the big leagues, we're big shots." In D&D, this means you're gearing up to stop a massive Evil plot to destroy and/or take over the world; in the Iron Kingdoms, it means you're either a commissioned officer in an army or you're running a successful mercenary company whose contract is greatly desired by all the nations, and in Shadowrun it means you have a Jackpoint login and MCT has several violated, gaping Zero Zones that they don't know your name is on.

It also means that you should have the good toys to play with. They shouldn't exist just so the GM can masturbate them onto special named NPCs, players should have a chance for them. Deltaware Wired Reflexes or Deltaware Move-by-Wire shouldn't exist if the players can't get ahold of them.


Especially since a magician, or an adept, (or a Technomancer,) can just Initiate (or Submerge) to their heart's content; this creates a massive power disparity, with the players who choose to play Awakened characters advancing dramatically, and the players who didn't being stuck in a rut.



Don't gimp the Augmented character any more than they already are. Make all the cyber affordable for them. They need it, they're half the setting, they shouldn't be ignored like that, taunted and teased with goodies they'll never get to play with.

[Lionhearted]

Always felt that deltaware is a bit lackluster personally, sure it's nicer on the soul or whatever... But it's not so much a power gain as it is a power spread.
Sure you can chip up that R3 Wired reflex and a bunch of other stuff, but you'd still be just as fast as the chum' with only the wires.
Where's the R7 Wires that would outright kill you unless they were made Delta?
Yes, I realise the augmented maximum would make those completely worthless, maybe the caps need to lessen a bit...

or How about really exotic pieces of ware that is so complex that they can only be made as delta? Like maybe a brain partition augment that let's you put complete focus on several things at once? (extra actions in an IP)
or an advanced nanite cluster that gives you regeneration powerful enough to regrow an arm?

As is, only being nicer on the essence cost, while it allows for more variety... Feels a bit bland.

Awesome write up shadowdragon.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Lionhearted: I agree, but power spread is still better than neither. If you think about it, it can make the Augmented character into the Jack of All Trades; they're so augmented and they've had so much Karma they didn't spend on all those Initiations and spells that they're at or near the augmented max for most of their stats, they have most skill groups at 4 and their favorites at 6 or even 7...


I mean, I'd prefer some super-high-end augmentations that let mundanes keep up with the wizzers when it comes to doling out the excellence in their field of specialization, but I'll take what I can get.

[Lionhearted]

Well there's something to add to the wishlist, interesting beta/delta ware (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Also... Why is there no Gamma ware?

[The Neutronium A...]

Also... Why is there no Gamma ware?

Because the game designers don't know the Greek alphabet and assumed it advances like the Latin one with G coming after D? It confused me for a while until I worked out the likely explanation.

[Umidori]

I definitely like the idea of specialized wares that are ONLY available as Beta or Delta. Things that are the cutting edge, that take things up a new level of power, but that have to be specially built into the person using them, at great cost and difficulty.

~Umi