[X] My Assistant

[_Pax._]

If you get caught in a confined space with a grenade, you could always... I dunno...[...]

... get the hell OUT of the enclosed space?

... grab the grenade and chuck it back?

*shrug*

Lots of potential responses, really. My favorite is, "if you can at all help it, don't get yourself into that situation in the first place".

[Umidori]

KHAAAAAAAANNNNNN!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"...buried alive!"

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

... get the hell OUT of the enclosed space?

... grab the grenade and chuck it back?

*shrug*

Lots of potential responses, really. My favorite is, "if you can at all help it, don't get yourself into that situation in the first place".

Two words: Air burst

@Umi Did you just discover negative levels in SR?!

[Umidori]

@Umi Did you just discover negative levels in SR?!

I don't follow... ?

EDIT - A bit of googling, and I now assume you're referencing D&D, which I must admit, I've never played. But yeah, I can see the comparison to that debuff, what with the "a character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain" thing.

~Umi

[All4BigGuns]

... get the hell OUT of the enclosed space?

... grab the grenade and chuck it back?

*shrug*

Lots of potential responses, really. My favorite is, "if you can at all help it, don't get yourself into that situation in the first place".

With the first two, well since the "optimizers" tend to use wireless grenades that they can just send a signal to detonate 'em right then, those won't work, as the GM for those players is probably putting those grenades in the hands of the opponents too. The key words for the last are "if you can help it".

[Lionhearted]

I don't follow... ?

EDIT - A bit of googling, and I now assume you're referencing D&D, which I must admit, I've never played. But yeah, I can see the comparison to that debuff, what with the "a character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain" thing.

~Umi

Basically when you get energy drained (usually from an undead) you temporarily lose a level, really nasty critters can make this drain permanent effectively bringing your character progress backwards.
By burning edge to survive you're essentially doing the same thing and being able to do so repeatedly is pretty much a karma draining ability... Well until you run out of edge and flat out die (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Downside is that you won't return as a vampire or lich or what have you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Sr3 Rules.
And using Chunky salsa leads to such sillyness as a simple grenade destroying vast parts of buildings . .

[Umidori]

Downside is that you won't return as a vampire or lich or what have you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I dunno, it'd probably suck to come back to life as a grenade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Basically when you get energy drained (usually from an undead) you temporarily lose a level, really nasty critters can make this drain permanent effectively bringing your character progress backwards.
By burning edge to survive you're essentially doing the same thing and being able to do so repeatedly is pretty much a karma draining ability... Well until you run out of edge and flat out die (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Downside is that you won't return as a vampire or lich or what have you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Only if you actually care about maintaining Edge. That is what it it there for, after all. *shrug*

[Umidori]

Only if you actually care about maintaining Edge.

TJ, you do READ these forums, right? You're aware of the sorts of players we attract, no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

Only if you actually care about maintaining Edge. That is what it it there for, after all. *shrug*

Well when you run out of edge...
0 + Chunky salsa = Game over man!

[Umidori]

INSERT COIN TO CONTINUE

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

INSERT COIN TO CONTINUE

Game over man! GAME OVER!

[tasti man LH]

INSERT COIN TO CONTINUE

~Umi

Nonono man, now it's more like:

"Reload Checkpoint to continue?"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ, you do READ these forums, right? You're aware of the sorts of players we attract, no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

~Umi

Yeah, I know... Sad though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well when you run out of edge...
0 + Chunky salsa = Game over man!

Sure... And that is bad how? Your story is over and a new story begins. *shrug*
Or you just make sure you buy back to 2 if you want to keep playing the character. *shrug*

[_Pax._]

Yeah, what's worse ... "losing" 10 or 15 Karma (to buy back to a 2 or 3 Edge) ... or losing ALL the accumulated karma and ¥ you've gained with the character so far?

[Umidori]

INSERT KARMA TO CONTINUE?

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, what's worse ... "losing" 10 or 15 Karma (to buy back to a 2 or 3 Edge) ... or losing ALL the accumulated karma and ¥ you've gained with the character so far?

Depends upon how the character died. If he died well, his story can end. If not then you Burn that Edge to survive. *shrug*

[ShadowDragon8685]

Yeah, what's worse ... "losing" 10 or 15 Karma (to buy back to a 2 or 3 Edge) ... or losing ALL the accumulated karma and ¥ you've gained with the character so far?

Depending on what state the character is in - such as if their identities have been compromised and it's not safe for them to go back and get their gear, and whether or not someone installed a cranial bomb or has a ritual link - it might be preferable to go with a new character, and maybe the GM will be generous and assign you some bonus Karma to smooth out the differences between you and the rest of the group.

[Smash]

Can't read the whole thread but I'll put in my 2 cents:

HACKING
I'm in the 'Deckers' were cool camp. I feel that wireless has cheapened the role of deckers and that breaking into a building and using a jack to hack should be the aim of a team and it's decker.

Yes wireless should have its place but it should be for casual decking and scouting, not for getting the job done. The thing is that this mimics the way wireless works in reality now. I'm not sure where people draw the conclusion that wireless MUST over-take wired at some point, seeming just because wired was 1st. In Australia right now the government is rolling out a fibre network for as part of a 50 year plan, meaning that they don't see wireless overtaking wired speeds in that timeframe. Aka, welcome to Shadowrun 2063 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So yeah, use AR for casual hacking and wireless, and VR for hardcore cyber hacking and combat. Mechanically this could work as wireless gets 1 pass per round while wireless gets 2/4.

Technomancers.................... Can we get rid of them please? The concept of magical hackers is just dumb. I like them as Otaku(?) NPCs around events, but not as PCs. Particularly as they are dressed up as internet gods too much so players and GMs tend to treat them as such. Please, make the new edition after a new crash that kills them all off.

In the end they are still too complicated and still take too long to play. This is really the only part of the game that I think needs simplifying to any great degree. Does my comlink need 2 stats that are 90% of the time that are the same? Does it really need an additional operating system?

RIGGING/Vehicles
I feel like riggers got left out in the cold in 4th edition. I never really felt like I needed to do much outside of having the gunnery and pilot skills to at least be the best getaway driver you could be. Drones added a little bit more but again it always felt like to be a 'Drone Rigger' I might as well just be a 'Hacker'. Don't get me wrong I like that they use the same mechanics (streamlined) but I feel like there should be some major investment into being good at one or the other (i.e Expensive decks for deckers and expensive headware for riggers).

I don't believe that drones need to get cheaper, Riggers should just bring what they're prepared to lose to a run, with some sort of party agreement that so much of his gear is considered expenses. After all, a cyber-samurai can't bring multiple heavy machine guns firing from multiple angles to a fire-fight. Being able to should have its drawbacks.

I'd like a picture and fully fleshed out vehicle stats for ALL vehicles and drones. I want to know how many seats it has standard, how many doors, how much storage room, how modular it is.

I want the core book to spell out how much it's going to cost to fix my wrecked vehicle and how long.

I must admit, I like the abstract chase rules. I have no idea how people would use maps with vehicles doing different speeds over maybe 10s of kms, but yes make it clearer. If a vehicle is at long range, can I shoot it with my pistol? If I can than is it long range for my AK?

Should my light pistol be able to damage a tank? Right now it's not likely but if your pool is big enough you can. I'm not sure if this needs fixing.


MAGIC
Don't make the mistake of leaving advancement rules for adepts until Street Magic 5th comes out.................... Adepts powers need to be re-costed. 1 magic for one point of agility/str/bog/refl is outrageous when you can buy 6 points with less than 1 essence with bioware. Things should be a lot cheaper and just have caps, like you can't buy past rank 3/4 in most things.

Stun spells need to have more drain than anything else. It's easily justified, just make it that magic that leaves the body undamaged but renders people incapacitated is harder to master than magic that simply destroys. Problem solved. 'Slow' is just a bad bad spell. Don't make this mistake again.

Differentiate the types of magic more. No more Bear Shamans wearing suits and engaging in espionage (I'm generalizing, if you can justify it to your GM then more power to you).

I get the impression that stealth and stealth magic is for nought on the astral plane and in some cases makes it easier to be seen. This concepts needs to be revised or at least clarified. I feel that my ninja should have ways of masking himself in the astral plane, whether that be with equipment or simply knowing when the mage is looking the other way.

In general it feels like most characters are very weak against mental manipulation and mana spells. I think the baseline defense needs to be raised in some way.

BOOKS
Probably my biggest criticism of all of the Shadowrun versions is that the books read like they were put together by primary school kids. I shouldn't have to look in 4 different spots in 2 different books to get a firm understanding of how a skill works. I realize Shadowrun is more complex that a game like Pathfinder but improvements should be possible in this regard.

I touched on this briefly before but don't leave gaping holes in the core book to fill with splat books later on. I should be able to make every archetype with at least a few different options and be able to improve them and to participate in every aspect of the game by simply buying the core rulebook. All the supplements should do is add a richer experience.

Utilize ebooks, but don't just give us pdfs. Give us an evolving manual so that every time there is an eratta my pdf is updated. Give me the ability to download 1 pdf core rulebook that incorporates the other books as modules, but don't just slot them in as chapters. Put the new gear in the gear section, put the new metamagics in the magic section. That way all the relevant rules are in one spot. I think this would be an awesome marketing opportunity. Still have paper books for the purists. Give me something that fits the 21st century.

RULES
Keep dice pools and keep the static target number. Work out how big you want dice pools to be at certain stages of the game and design it around those goals. People with 30 dice pools ruin the game and inevitable the GM scales everything accordingly. This makes generalists not worth playing.

Have stats contribute X, skills X and everything else X so that we get pools maxing out at 15 or 18. The effect of stats may need to be 1/2ed for instance.

Combat modifiers are another area where simplification is needed. Do we really need 5 range increments? Do we really need 4-5 different types of artificial sight? Well maybe, but it just seems that at the moment everyone gets ultrasound for 99% of situations and a light on their gun for the other 1%. Personally, I think if you want to see around thermal smoke then maybe you need astral perception. Otherwise suck up the modifiers. What about 1 range table? Whether you're shooting a pistol or a sniper rifle, 5ms is point blank, 25m short, 50m med, etc. Therefore at 1km, you'll get -4 with your sniper rifle but at least it can still shoot that far and most of the time your 1st shot by-passes reaction, so it won't make that much difference. Also, do the 4 pistol types need different range tables? Considering they're basically the same, making them all the same can't make that much difference.

I like the purchasing/rarity rules but they could be simpler. Have some examples of what happens when you carry certain weapons/gear in certain zones. No-one takes rocket launchers into bars, not even in the barrens, unless they want to use it that turn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What do contact stats prove? Besides fixers and selling/buying stuff they just seem like qualitative guides that cost karma. Can I make them better? How do I get more?

That's about it for now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Umidori]

That reminds me...

Deal with all the useless and bizarre spells. Ignite, Turn to Goo, Petrify, Fling, Agony, et cetera.

~Umi

[Sage2000]

As a really old (almost 40!!!) RPG player, here goes my first 2 cents.

First and foremost congratulations on the 4th Edition. In my opinion Shadowrun evolved a great deal since it's first edition.

The best thing about recent editions is the fixed target number, and dice modifiers. You guys have no idea how annoyed I was by the old "reroll the 6" system. A penalty of 2 could mean a HUGE penalty if your original target number was 4 (4+2=6), cuting your chances by 2/3. Same -2 penalty would not do much if the original target numer was like 6.

ABOUT WEAPONS, GEAR AND WHAT THEY SHOULD DO:

Lets face it: like all good RPGs Shadowrun system is abstract, which is good. Combat is abstract, so is social interaction, steath, acrobatic feats etc. So would be just silly to try to "fit into reality", the game would be a rules nightmare and - still - not be powergamer proof.

That being said, I still would like to see the weapons and gear being used to their original intent, to create distinction between the characters, so decisions to enter a close quarters firefight using a huge, clumsy, weapon would have some consequences. Characters using diferent weapons for different situations.

Take the sniper rifle for example: I see the developers pain. If you make if more powerfull, with more damage, more armor penetration, characters would start using them in place of the assaut rifles and shotguns in every firefight. If you nerf their power, people will use assaut cannons or machineguns for sniping (some dudes actually do that, as the rules don't penalize them). Someone pointed out on these foruns that there are lots of diferences between the precision weapons and the automatic ones (specially machineguns). All the sniper rifle ammo is treated with much more caution, like every shot counts, the quality control is far superior from the machine gun ammo, makes sense. But we don't expect the rules to go that deep, so what's the solution?

I propose a small set of bonuses and penalties for enviroment and/situation (this is abstract, ok?), so we don't need to know where everything is. Would work similary to the vision modifiers, like this:

ENVIROMENT/SITUATION (examples, they would become a table)

"Squeezing" (ventilation duct) - Small weapons, that can be held with one hand or so, and moved around, should be OK to use, while most longarms and rifles, cannons and machineguns would be almost useless. (You try to turn a machinegun in a 1x1meter space).

Close Quarters (most apartment buildings) - Small weapons OK. Longarms with a small penalty, maybe shotguns could be allowed to shine here. Again huge weapons, machineguns, cannons would be penalized. This is becuse of all the bumping into walls, objects, the trouble to turn. I know there are techniques for that, but its not as easy as to use, say, a submachinegun.

Medium/Average (most street fights) - Here the rifles would shine, and they would have no penalty at all and put their firepower, damage and modes to good use. Sniper weapons should be crappy in this situation.

Long Ranges (the character move the weapon mere centimeters during combat, he is away from the main mess) - Here sniper weapons should shinne. The way to do that is to not allow vision enhancers to neutralize 100% of the distance modifiers (see bellow).


RANGE MODIFIERS

They should be composed by 2 parts: the vision modifiers by the range and the accuracy modifiers. That way the vision magnification would neutralize part of the range modifiers. Again the idea is to create diferences between the weapon sets, to allow for variety.

Range Vision Modifiers - Can be neutralized by scopes/enchancers, spending an action, like the 4th Edition. No change here.
Weapon Accuracy Modifiers- Here is the solution many odd issues, where people worry only about the maximum range. Another option is the wepon loosing power/damage when fired from long ranges. Again the sniper weapon "special power" would shine here, even without doing more damage tham your machine gun.


WEAPON SKILLS LINKED TO WEAPON "CATEGORIES"

In terms of game balance and flavor I believe we should have the firearms skills (automatics, longarms etc.) aligned to the weapons and what they do. What kind of weapon should shine in each situation should have related skills. Here is an example:

Pistols - Cold stay the same, or be modified to include the "one handed" submachineguns. Could be used for melee shooting with some penalty.

Automatics - Probably should separate rifles from the submachineguns, making rifles more appropriate for medium/long range situations (needing 2 hands free to use effectively) and the submachinegun an overal average weapon (could be used one-handed).

Long Arms - These are "2 hand weapons", and should reflect that. Shotguns should pack a punch and sport/sniper rifles should be excelent at range. Should be crap to shot in melee, as the opponent easly grapple the barrel.

Heavy Weapons - It is good the way it is IF there are clear rules indicating that one cannot effectively stay hidden "snipping" with a Panther Cannon. Heavy weapons should be devastating, but they are not supposed to be all mighty. Also crappy to shoot in melee.


Now let me illustrate these suggested rules in action:

* A Street Samurai could choose to use a submachinegun/pistol when breaking into a house, instead of his all mighty battle-rifle.
* A sniper attacked in melee should go for his sidearm or knife, instead of using the sniper rifle to shoot an enemy 1 meter from him. Same would go for the assaut cannon.

* Everyone would feel "unique" in his specialty.

* Position and terrain would matter.


There are more suggestions, but for now I think it's enough.

Best regards!

Sage

[nezumi]

Smash - you and me are going to be good friends. I agree.

Sage - I agree, I'd love to play your game. On SR3R, we discussed this ruleset, and it does help with a tactical game. But since most players want fewer rules, I don't think it will make the cut.

[_Pax._]

Maybe as something optional, in a combat-and-weapons related book (like Arsenal was for 4E).