[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

Smash:

I mostly agree, but the one point I want to address is Technos: I think that they can work without being "mages of the internet." But hacking rules would need to be addressed first.

[Lionhearted]

I personally see technomancers as a potentially really cool concept, kind of an embodiment of Clarke's third law.
I hope that they become more of Technology magi and less of Cybermancers, continue build on concepts like E-sensing, Mind over machine, acceleration and biowires.
Make the source of their power mundane in nature, rather then some sort of supernatural connection with the electronic world it's an subtle expression of the super organism formed by the interlinked technology, a hive mind of information and data exchange.
How do they interface with this constant stream of information then? (the resonance)
Well bear in mind that soft nanites are nothing but reprogrammed micro organisms or virae.

[Sage2000]

Smash - you and me are going to be good friends. I agree.

Sage - I agree, I'd love to play your game. On SR3R, we discussed this ruleset, and it does help with a tactical game. But since most players want fewer rules, I don't think it will make the cut.

Thank you, that was kind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't want to have to house-rule things. That's why I am suggesting a table, like the vision modifiers one. Keeping it abstract, simple.

Maybe as something optional, in a combat-and-weapons related book (like Arsenal was for 4E).

Thats actually a good idea. I just would like to have - at least - the skills arranged/aligned properly in the main book.

Actually we are very lucky over here, my players are not powergamers, we like things that make some sense. We like when our choices matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

Some good input, Sage.

Regarding weapon size in tight spaces, I personally think the Concealability system definitely needs some work.

First off, actually list the damn concealability. This should be a vital, required statistic for every weapon and item in the game. Second, rebalance existing concealabilities. A katana should not be 50% harder to conceal than other swords, as katana and their makers were historically shorter than their western counterparts. Fix this, as well as all the other oddities of size that defy logic. Third, open up the odd numbered values for base item concealability. That way an oversized weapon (for its class) like the Ruger Super Warhawk could be a +1 compared to other, smaller Heavy Pistols at their normal +0 concealability. Fourth, modify concealability based on metatype. A troll is going to have a much easier time hiding a katana under their coat than a dwarf.

Once all that's done, add in situational modifiers per Sage's notion. Larger items with higher concealability values should suffer penalties in close quarters. Oh, and fix Chameon Coating on items so that it's an effective drop in concealability for the purposes of visual detection, rather than a flat out modification and reduction, that way we don't get machine guns and the like avoiding their size penalties because they're magically 4 points smaller.

~Umi

[Draco18s]

Once all that's done, add in situational modifiers per Sage's notion. Larger items with higher concealability values should suffer penalties in close quarters. Oh, and fix Chameon Coating on items so that it's an effective drop in concealability for the purposes of visual detection, rather than a flat out modification and reduction, that way we don't get machine guns and the like avoiding their size penalties because they're magically 4 points smaller.

If this were any other game, I'd be totally cool with chameleon coating actually causing items to get physically smaller without otherwise being effected (including weight!).

Just because the visuals would be ridiculous.

[_Pax._]

/agree-with-Umidori

Concealability in SR4 is all kinds of messed up.

[_Pax._]

You know, I've just thought of an idea ... it's pretty radical, but bear with me:

Completelt change how Adepts work.

Instead of them being "magical street sams", change their focus - and limit the focus of street sams as well. Make it so that Adepts are skill-focussed, and Street samurai are Attribute focussed. Make it easier for Adepts to get skill dice, even more of them than currently. Meanwhile, make it a bit harder for Samurai to get more than a very few of them (aside from skillwires) ... but keep it relatively easy for sammies to boost their base attributes.

[sk8bcn]

Thinking about adepts.

I'd like a new step toward disciplines with a few new aspected adepts with new kind of powers (like a stealth master kind of adept).

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

sk8bcn, look at the "Way of the Adept" supplement.

[_Pax._]

Yes; "Way of the Adept" is a step in that direction.

[Stahlseele]

And here i thought Adepts should be made to get higher attributes easier and Samurai get skills and skill bonus dice cheaper(skillwires) because of the whole using magic to better their bodies shtick . .
Make Bioware Enhancements a bit steeper in both essence and money cost
Make Skillwires a bit cheaper both in essence and money cost
lower improved attribute cost for adept power . .
Raise cost of improved skill for adepts a bit and give Samurai something that lets them get some more bonus dice for skills, like the old Enhanced Artwinculation . .

[Draco18s]

And here i thought Adepts should be made to get higher attributes easier and Samurai get skills and skill bonus dice cheaper(skillwires) because of the whole using magic to better their bodies shtick . .

I was going to agree with the reverse, then I read this.

But I don't know if it's possible to do it this way (the other way at least is feasible).

[All4BigGuns]

You know, I've just thought of an idea ... it's pretty radical, but bear with me:

Completelt change how Adepts work.

Instead of them being "magical street sams", change their focus - and limit the focus of street sams as well. Make it so that Adepts are skill-focussed, and Street samurai are Attribute focussed. Make it easier for Adepts to get skill dice, even more of them than currently. Meanwhile, make it a bit harder for Samurai to get more than a very few of them (aside from skillwires) ... but keep it relatively easy for sammies to boost their base attributes.

No no no no no, ten quadrillion times NO! Neither need to really change except for one thing. Add in a restriction to Awakened that they may never have implants...EVER.

[Lionhearted]

Why are you trying to put arbitrary restriction on a open build system?
Isn't that defeating the point of the exercise?
You might aswell add classes at that point.

[All4BigGuns]

Or at the very least put the restriction Vampire Infected have on all things magically-active (Delta only).

And no it's not "you might as well implement classes". It's the only way to prevent the "optimizers" from just implanting everything and claiming that people's characters suck because they do what is intended.

[Lionhearted]

Justify that restriction in the fluff, for vamps and shapeshifters it's easy, they simply heal to damn quickly to implant anything and even when you do it get pushed out by the body when it's to foreign. Doesn't make any sense why a human would have that restriction.

[All4BigGuns]

Justify that restriction in the fluff, for vamps and shapeshifters it's easy, they simply heal to damn quickly to implant anything and even when you do it get pushed out by the body when it's to foreign. Doesn't make any sense why a human would have that restriction.

Magic and technology are not supposed to "play nice" with each other. That it's possible to put standard grade implants into Awakened flies in the face of that.

[tasti man LH]

I guess that's the rub (especially in the case of hackers VS TMs): re-balance the archetypes.

Give the opposing classes clear advantages and disadvantages, but that they would compliment each other and cover for each others' weaknesses.

Just so, you know, you WANT to have a hacker and a TM on the same team.

[Stahlseele]

On the other hand, the awakened loses magic in addition to essence, where the mundane only loses essence, which he can't and thus won't have to buy back up using karma, whereas the awakened will have to buy the magic back up using karma . .

[All4BigGuns]

The only ones that would really have a problem with it are the munchy "optimizers" out there, and that's only because there's a few dice they won't be able to squeeze out right there at the get-go.

[_Pax._]

Add in a restriction to Awakened that they may never have implants...EVER.

That would be a bigger change, and a much more massive departure from SR's roots.

What I suggested would produce a definitive differentiation between Adepts and Samurai, while (done carefully, with the right costs) promoting increased balance.

Magic and technology are not supposed to "play nice" with each other. That it's possible to put standard grade implants into Awakened flies in the face of that.

They don't play nice. Adding tech, of any grade, directly reduces Magic.

[All4BigGuns]

They don't play nice. Adding tech, of any grade, directly reduces Magic.

But they still function together. This means that they have been "playing nice". Something needs to be done so the two truly do NOT "play nice" and do not function together. At all.

[Lionhearted]

The amazing thing about class less progression system is that no one can tell me that my mage can't wear plate(chrome) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

But they still function together. This means that they have been "playing nice". Something needs to be done so the two truly do NOT "play nice" and do not function together. At all.

That's what Essence is supposed to do -- Magic wanes in the presence of more and more tech. Some limit on the maximum attribute (or limiting of Initiation to the same effect) would probably curtail some of the more egregious magic/cyber hybrids.

[All4BigGuns]

That's what Essence is supposed to do -- Magic wanes in the presence of more and more tech. Some limit on the maximum attribute (or limiting of Initiation to the same effect) would probably curtail some of the more egregious magic/cyber hybrids.

How about this for a compromise, making it so that Awakened who accept implants can't Initiate--meaning what they have after the Essence loss of the implants is all they'll ever have.

But something does need to be done to make the price of Awakened taking implants higher, because obviously with how many "optimizers" are doing it, the price is nowhere near high enough.