[X] My Assistant

[Lionhearted]

Whoops shouldn't have gotten that datajack before I awakened now I'm (arbitrarily) unable to develop my talent!

On the notion of ware, always thought it was weird fluff wise how TM's get screwed over by ware... I get it from a balance standpoint, ought to be a better way to approach it though.
and no "remove technomancers" is not the solution.

[_Pax._]

The amazing thing about class less progression system is that no one can tell me that my mage can't wear plate(chrome) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This, right here. In kilometer-high neon letters.

But they still function together. This means that they have been "playing nice".

They only "play nice" together in the same sense, and to teh same degree, that they have since the launch of 1E. I really, really don't see the problem.

How about this for a compromise, making it so that Awakened who accept implants can't Initiate--meaning what they have after the Essence loss of the implants is all they'll ever have.

HELL NO.

That's not a compromise. That's nothign less than a "You're a mage, with cyber? FUCK YOU, now go make a new character!"

...

EDIT TO ADD: and it would absolutely screw over my own, perfectly-reasonable "HAcker Adept" character. Granted, he's really capable - but that owes more to his being built with 1,000 karma. Just out of CharGen, his Magic is 5, and his Essence is 5.1; his Augmentations include R1 Cybereyes (Low-light, flare comp, a cosmetic eyemod, protective covers, and skinlink), a datajack (with skinlink), a skin pocket, EPE: PuSHeD, and - this is the big one - a simsense booster.

Hardly gamebreaking.

For adept powers? Astral Perception, Eidetic sense memory, Sustenance, Multi-tasking, and a giant raftload of Improved Ability (noncombat) abilities (3 dice to Hacking; 2 dice to each of Artisan, Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, Hardware, and Software). All affordable due to The Artisan's Way.

...

And you would have him be denied the option to Initiate? Or just plain denied the option to have any of his implants, only one of which has a significant effect on his role ...?

Bah. Fuck that noise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

HELL NO.

That's not a compromise. That's nothign less than a "You're a mage, with cyber? FUCK YOU, now go make a new character!"

The character still functions as a mage (or adept, mystic adept, whatever), but they're actually paying a price for having those implants. They can still take the implants, and so long as the magic rating wasn't "hard capped" right off they can still buy another point. They'll just never be as powerful a mage (or whatever) as one that didn't take the implants.

Heck if the optional rule with metamagic is still in SR5, and active, they would still be able to get those despite not Initiating.

[_Pax._]

The character still functions as a mage (or adept, mystic adept, whatever), but they're actually paying a price for having those implants.

The price of "never be better as a Mage/Adept than when you left Character Generation".

Yes, that is a huge "fuck you" to anyone who wants to play a lightly-cybered but still Awakened character.

See my example, above? In his backstory, the Eyes and 'Jack both predate his Awakening. Your suggestions owuld make the entire concept unplayable, and for no good reason I can see.

[Epicedion]

Tweaking the Essence cost of gear for Awakened characters might be more prudent -- simply have them cost some significant percentage more, just because you're Awakened. Like double. That would push Awakened more toward tiny bits of utility gear rather than chroming themselves out. It would also push them toward higher quality gear with all its extra expense.

That way you'd be able to take a datajack or a smartlink, or some cybereyes/ears or whatever, but the big-ticket items like Wired Reflexes would just be beyond most mages Essence-wise if not financially. Deltaware Wired Reflexes could pay for some pretty spiffy foci, after all.

[bannockburn]

Something needs to be done so that mages and adepts can't be cybered?

The answer is "No."
Nothing needs to be done. It works fine, has worked fine up until now and will probably work fine in the future.
If your perception does not allow this, do something yourself and make up house rules.
There is no necessity nor a vocal majority or even a vocal minority who demands such things. You're the first person I've seen with this stance in all my time playing this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Ergo: "No."

[All4BigGuns]

The price of "never be better as a Mage/Adept than when you left Character Generation".

Yes, that is a huge "fuck you" to anyone who wants to play a lightly-cybered but still Awakened character.

See my example, above? In his backstory, the Eyes and 'Jack both predate his Awakening. Your suggestions owuld make the entire concept unplayable, and for no good reason I can see.

The concept you speak of would still be able to get to a magic rating of 5. It just wouldn't be able to do "kewl powerz" stuff (though it would still be able to over cast up to Force 10). It would still be able to buy up every other attribute; it would still be able to improve skills and buy new skills.

As to Bannockburn's comment, it's pretty much that the price is not high enough since so many of the "optimizers" think it's worth the cost, so the cost needs to be high enough that those sorts do not think it's worth the cost.

[Lionhearted]

Isn't adepts more about the magic rating and less about the "kewl stuff"

[bannockburn]

That's just your perception.
I don't think that the price is 'not high enough' (and still have never played a cybered adept or mage, because personal decision). Matters of taste are very difficult to quantify.
So, by all means: Swing your nerfbat at your home table to make sure those evil optimizers never play a cybered and awakened character. However, be aware that the rules as given so far have been rather robust and most people do not see a need to tweak them.

[All4BigGuns]

Isn't adepts more about the magic rating and less about the "kewl stuff"

The ones who are always saying to put bio ware into all adepts are the reason that something needs to be done to make the price of taking implants higher, so apparently it's not at present.

[Umidori]

Another idea similar to my thoughts on Concealability - weapon fire perception modifiers. Let's call it "Audibility". (Why not?)

1) "Audibility", like Concealability, should be a vital, required statistic for every weapon and item in the game. It should be a measure of how easy or difficult it is to hear the normal operations of the weapon or item. Higher Audibility means it is easier to hear the item in question, lower means it is harder.

1a) While we're at it, change "Concealability" to "Visibility" for goodness sake! It never made sense to me that a gun with a "higher" Concealability value was less able to to be concealed than one with a "lower" Concealability. Changing to "Visibility" solves this problem neatly, and allows you split off item size into its own distinct value. It can even dovetail with the existing Visibility Modifiers rules.

2) There should be a "null value" for Audibility, representing weapons or items that are completely (or almost) silent by nature - things such as melee weapons definitely, but also perhaps beam weapons, crossbows, or other relatively noiseless implements.

3) Weapon class and power should appropriately modify Audibility. An assault cannon should be far more audible than a holdout pistol, and a Ruger Super Warhawk should be slightly more audible than other Heavy Pistols.

4) Burst fire should appropriately modify Audibility. More Dakka™ should produce more noise. Thus, while a Machine Pistol firing short bursts will match the damage of a semi-auto Assault Rifle in a smaller, less visible package, it might still make as much, or more, sound.

5) Ammunition should appropriately modify Audibility. Subsonic rounds already do this to a degree, but arguably things like Explosive Rounds should be somewhat louder than ordinary bullets as well.

6) The environment should appropriately modify Audibility, akin to Visibility modifiers. It's a lot easier to hear something in an empty corporate office than in a busy industrial warehouse or an explosive goblin-rock concert.

~Umi

[All4BigGuns]

That's just your perception.
I don't think that the price is 'not high enough' (and still have never played a cybered adept or mage, because personal decision). Matters of taste are very difficult to quantify.
So, by all means: Swing your nerfbat at your home table to make sure those evil optimizers never play a cybered and awakened character. However, be aware that the rules as given so far have been rather robust and most people do not see a need to tweak them.

My group is reasonable and doesn't routinely do such shenanigans. It was after seeing so many on these forums and the official forums that do do such that I discovered that something needs to be done.

[bannockburn]

And still nothing needs to be done. Your wanting it does not make it so.
There are basically two ways to solve such a situation: Either you make the thing that's not taken (in this particular case: Enhanced physical attributes) more desirable, or you make the other thing less desirable. Guess which one is more fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Yours is a mostly unjustified knee-jerk reaction born from, by your own admission, not even personal experience. You see other people play the game differently and want them to stop it. Seriously, what? Is that envy or just weird?

[All4BigGuns]

And still nothing needs to be done. Your wanting it does not make it so.
There are basically two ways to solve such a situation: Either you make the thing that's not taken (in this particular case: Enhanced physical attributes) more desirable, or you make the other thing less desirable. Guess which one is more fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Yours is a mostly unjustified knee-jerk reaction born from, by your own admission, not even personal experience. You see other people play the game differently and want them to stop it. Seriously, what? Is that envy or just weird?

Not to stop it, but for the cost to be high enough that it's done solely because the character envisioned requires it, rather than--as it currently is--because the cost is so low that they just want the extra dice it gives.

[Lionhearted]

Let me get this straight Bigguns, you never experienced it as a problem and yet you advocate that it need to be fixed?
Isn't that like selling the skin before you killed the bear?

[bannockburn]

This sounds a lot like "Other people enjoy different things than I do. They should stop doing that and enjoy what I like!"

[All4BigGuns]

Let me get this straight Bigguns, you never experienced it as a problem and yet you advocate that it need to be fixed?
Isn't that like selling the skin before you killed the bear?

Just because it doesn't happen at my table doesn't mean I can't see the sheer number who do it from coming to these forums (and the other forums) and recognize that it is a problem.

This sounds a lot like "Other people enjoy different things than I do. They should stop doing that and enjoy what I like!"

Come now. A personal attack like this only hurts your case.

[Draco18s]

Let me get this straight Bigguns, you never experienced it as a problem and yet you advocate that it need to be fixed?
Isn't that like selling the skin before you killed the bear?

And the foundation for modern law.

(Quick: how many federal laws are there on the books that are "strict liability" that is, laws where ignorance of the law doesn't protect you from prosecution*)

*Answer: Trick question: the number is unknowable and that's just federal laws! Not to count state and local regulations. [1]

[Stahlseele]

Techically, yes, something HAS to be done about awakened taking Implants . .
Because a Mundane has 5 points of Essence to spend, realistically, because
a: he will run out of money soon
b: going below 1 point of Essence is dangerous, as soon as you have to deal with essence loss in game . .

an awakened character may have the same problems, but on the other hand he still retains magical abilities that he can tack on to what he does with the same cyber than the mundane.
"oh so you can see lowlight, infrared and far away stuff and ultrasound and have a gun-cam feed with target help? Cool, me too! but i still have Astral Perception additionally!"

giving all awakened the BioRejection or Sensitive System Flaw mandatory would be a way to deal with this partly . .



furthermore, i just remembered another reason why adepts should get cheaper attribute boosts while samurai should get cheaper skills and boosts . .
adepts are supposed to be good at one or two things through magic. and really good at that. so good that they are called adept at something.
while samurai are supposed to be the swiss army knife generalists, jack of all trades but master of none.
this makes it so that an adept can, in game, broaden his horizons learning some new stuff for little karma for beginner skills because he has to spend more on his magic and adept abilities
and the samurai can specialize in stuff using little money and more karma, because he already has a good foundation . .

[bannockburn]

I did not mean to attack you, and I do not see how you got this feeling, but let me explain further:

You state: "I don't like that cybered adepts are overpowered", then "I don't experience this, my group is reasonable". This alone infers that you think that everyone who uses implants on his awakened characters is not reasonable. Furthermore, you state that you only ever had contact with such people on forums, making your demands seem a bit off.
What else am I to deduct from such a line of argumentation other than "People are having fun WRONG!"?

This is not meant as an attack, but rather as a suggestion that you ask yourself whether this is a real problem or just a personal opinion and why it bothers you so much if you don't even experience it?

[_Pax._]

Just because it doesn't happen at my table doesn't mean I can't see the sheer number who do it from coming to these forums (and the other forums) and recognize that it is a problem.

I have two words for you, All4: tough shit.

Seriously. How I, or Lion, or anyoen else has fun away from your table and your group, is quite frankly none of your god-damned business.

You have zero business telling me how my games should or shouldn't be played. You have zero business looking at a behavior that does not affect your play and declaring it "badwrongfun", then advocating it be Officially Dsicouraged™. ZERO.

Period, end of story.

[Lionhearted]

Just because it doesn't happen at my table doesn't mean I can't see the sheer number who do it from coming to these forums (and the other forums) and recognize that it is a problem.

There's a lot of people crying wolf on the internet. Something that's broken in theory under ideal conditions, doesn't necessarily mean there's actually a problem that needs fixing.
Spend some time on any online gaming community and you'll soon discover that everything is broken overpowered, underpowered or doesn't work as intended.

[Draco18s]

There's a lot of people crying wolf on the internet. Something that's broken in theory under ideal conditions, doesn't necessarily mean there's actually a problem that needs fixing.
Spend some time on any online gaming community and you'll soon discover that everything is broken overpowered, underpowered or doesn't work as intended.

Can't wait for rules lawyers and munchkins to get a hold of Velociraptor! Cannibalism! to see what kind of insane and overpowered monstrosities result.

To which our reply will be:

"And the odds of that occurring in real play are...?"

[Cain]

Personally, I've never see the huge advantage in lightly cybered awakened characters. There nothing gamebreaking about a cybermage in 4.5, when you consider how much you have to spend on it. Augmented adepts can get out of hand (see the Pornomancer for details) but there's other ways of dealing with them. I'm siding with Pax on this one, there's no need.

[Stahlseele]

As for Technomancers . . yes, quite the interesting Problem there . .
On one hand, they are Technological Magic. Which is, in itself, a big nono in Shadowrun.
And they are the successors to the Otaku. Who were just the Result of an AI's Experiment because it was lonely and hear it's non biological Clock ticking . .

On the OTHER Hand, they might be the one step up in evolution between Metahumanity as it is right now and a Metahumanity that has gone over to cyberspace completely . .
Where they would be safe from the Horrors and there would not be any big Problem otherwise either, aside from, maybe, boredom . .
You don't need food, you don't need water, you don't need space on the surface, space is basically unlimited as new space can simply be created . .
The only problems would come from the outer world infrastructure failing to provide energy for the matrix systems . .
And then you jump into drones to fix it up and have factories build these drones automagically . .