[X] My Assistant

[Epicedion]

As for Technomancers . . yes, quite the interesting Problem there . .
On one hand, they are Technological Magic. Which is, in itself, a big nono in Shadowrun.
And they are the successors to the Otaku. Who were just the Result of an AI's Experiment because it was lonely and hear it's non biological Clock ticking . .

On the OTHER Hand, they might be the one step up in evolution between Metahumanity as it is right now and a Metahumanity that has gone over to cyberspace completely . .
Where they would be safe from the Horrors and there would not be any big Problem otherwise either, aside from, maybe, boredom . .
You don't need food, you don't need water, you don't need space on the surface, space is basically unlimited as new space can simply be created . .
The only problems would come from the outer world infrastructure failing to provide energy for the matrix systems . .
And then you jump into drones to fix it up and have factories build these drones automagically . .

Ugh, technomancers give me headaches. Thematically they seem barely based on the Otaku, who still relied on implanted technology. The "magical wireless brain" thing bugs me.

[Stahlseele]

Ugh, technomancers give me headaches. Thematically they seem barely based on the Otaku, who still relied on implanted technology. The "magical wireless brain" thing bugs me.

Yeah, me too, but then, basically everything about SR4 bugs me . .
The Otaku should have been expanded upon, with every Decker having the Ability to Awaken to be an Otaku . .

[SIN]

Just to, very briefly, throw in my two cents; I'd really like to see the Essence & Magic system tweaked to make the old Burned Out Mage archetype a reasonable possibility again. It was a great fun and flavourful archetype, really getting across the sense of the two different forces (Magic and Tech) in the world of Shadowrun.

Alas, it's a bit too pricey to play these days, what with you having to purchase your Magic attribute up to a reasonably decent level before deliberately handicapping yourself. Such a shame.

So, no, please don't prevent Mages et al from getting implants - please make it easier if anything! The Magic loss is price enough IMHO.

[Stahlseele]

Just to, very briefly, throw in my two cents; I'd really like to see the Essence & Magic system tweaked to make the old Burned Out Mage archetype a reasonable possibility again. It was a great fun and flavourful archetype, really getting across the sense of the two different forces (Magic and Tech) in the world of Shadowrun.

Alas, it's a bit too pricey to play these days, what with you having to purchase your Magic attribute up to a reasonably decent level before deliberately handicapping yourself. Such a shame.

So, no, please don't prevent Mages et al from getting implants - please make it easier if anything! The Magic loss is price enough IMHO.

Did you read about Way of the Burnout yet? O.o

[SIN]

No - is this a "Way of the Adept" thing? Can it be applied to Mages?

[_Pax._]

In theory, though not strictly RAW - which intends it for Adepts and Mystic Adepts.

The Burnout's Way requires you to have lost 2 full points of magic due to Augmentations; in return, you essentially get the Biocompatibility quality "free" (pick Cyber or Bio, natch).

[Stahlseele]

Technically, nothing from Way of the Adept is RAW . .

[SIN]

See, I'd just as happily not be given any bonus for being a burnout. I'd just like Magic to start at 6 from the off again (add some BP to the Magic User quality if needed, to help balance). Then I can purposely ruinate myself for the purposes of a good story. I used to love seeing the burnout sigh when the drek hit the fan, realising that he pretty much HAD to cast a decent spell to pull everyone's hoop out of the fire. He'd roll his dice and then the GM would describe the blood fountaining out of his ears. Great stuff!

[_Pax._]

Technically, nothing from Way of the Adept is RAW . .

No, it's all RAW.

It's just not core RAW.

[Stahlseele]

No, it's all RAW.

It's just not core RAW.

They are all optional rules, as far as i know.

[_Pax._]

"RAW" means "Rules As Written", and carries no distinction between beign Core, being Supplement, or whatever. It just means "the way it was written in X or Y book". The official version, if you will.

Way of the Adept is RAW. It just isn't Core.

OTOH, if I home-brew a "Way of the Dumpster-Diver" quality, that is not RAW, because it is homebrew.

[Stahlseele]

until you write it down somewhere, then it becomes, as per definition, rules as written.
ok, so it may be RAW, but it ain't, strictly speaking, canon . .

[Darksong]

Just to, very briefly, throw in my two cents; I'd really like to see the Essence & Magic system tweaked to make the old Burned Out Mage archetype a reasonable possibility again. It was a great fun and flavourful archetype, really getting across the sense of the two different forces (Magic and Tech) in the world of Shadowrun.

Alas, it's a bit too pricey to play these days, what with you having to purchase your Magic attribute up to a reasonably decent level before deliberately handicapping yourself. Such a shame.

So, no, please don't prevent Mages et al from getting implants - please make it easier if anything! The Magic loss is price enough IMHO.

I felt the same way and instituted a house rule that your starting magic was capped at your starting essence (rounded down) but you still had to pay "hard cap" BP for the last point.

It was highly breakable, but my table is full of good guys so it worked for us.

[Lionhearted]

At Chargen isn't it supposed to go like.
Buy points in magic ⇒ Buy augments ⇒ deduct essence ⇒ deduct magic.
(Going by the 4A chargen process)

Meaning that if you had 5.xx essence and want 5 magic you need to buy 6 at chargen?

[Darksong]

yes, hence the house rule

[Sage2000]

Something needs to be done so that mages and adepts can't be cybered?

The answer is "No."
Nothing needs to be done. It works fine, has worked fine up until now and will probably work fine in the future.
If your perception does not allow this, do something yourself and make up house rules.
There is no necessity nor a vocal majority or even a vocal minority who demands such things. You're the first person I've seen with this stance in all my time playing this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Ergo: "No."

If I may suggest something to solve this issue is this: any math done with dice pools (attributes, skills and such) would never solve the min-max issues.

The solution, in my opinion, is to have different kind of characters shine in different momments, rulling diferent aspects of the game.

Just to bring an example, we hear a lot of complain in these foruns about overpowered mages. I believe one thing that keeps mages unique in this game is precisely the thing they do, that only them can do. You need magic to effectively fight magic. I HATE the concetp of "pseudo-magic" technology solving the magic related problems. Have an angry spirit? No problem! Just trown my MANA-TECH granade.... have issues with awakened creatures? No problem! just use my magic-enchanted-MANA BULLETS... you guys get the picture.

I was a fan of the old 80s ninja movies, and I remmember the quote: "only a ninja can stop a ninja".

Also, remmember that "...there is a better way to take care of a wizard." 1:20

So if adepts can do things ONLY adepts can do, like:

- Fight awakened creatures,
- Jump down from a building (Selene from Underworld style),
- REALLY run up the walls,
- Really do GREAT LEAPS (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, anyone?),
- Have a SUPER DODGE (Matrix Style), usable once in full defense, with rules similar to atribute boost,

Need I to go on?

Maybe the solution would be: Mages and adepts shine doing unique, physics defying things, and dealing with awakeened creatures.

Super-cyber guys would shine using brute force, kicking down doors, soaking damage, and jumping/running using large pools but regular rules.

I believe this way we could build a better game.

[Lionhearted]

Anyone ever watched Gargoyles?
It got a rather neat take on magic, basically.
"Remember that energy is energy, no matter the source"

Sure a spirit is big and scary and hard to kill, but oppose it with enough force and you should be able to beat it, whether it's a mana bolt or a rocket launcher

[Stahlseele]

fuck yeah, Gargoyles is one of these Badass Series that nobody thinks was done by Disney . .

[Sage2000]

At Chargen isn't it supposed to go like.
Buy points in magic ⇒ Buy augments ⇒ deduct essence ⇒ deduct magic.
(Going by the 4A chargen process)

Meaning that if you had 5.xx essence and want 5 magic you need to buy 6 at chargen?

Actually I would suggest something entirelly different: to have just ONE resourse pool.

During characters generation, at least, everything should be bought with just ONE resourse (points, karma etc.). This would tremendously reduce the situation where min-maxers just choose based on whats more effective, instead of choosing what fits in the character concept.

I think would be possible to do exactly the same thing after character creation as well. As a result, money would be less important, like in World of Warcraft.

IF that ever become a problem durin game testing, a new approach could be used: the augumentations should be bought with money+karma. Yes, you would need money to buy augmentations in game, and karma to buy it in terms of meta-gamming.

[Sage2000]

Anyone ever watched Gargoyles?
It got a rather neat take on magic, basically.
"Remember that energy is energy, no matter the source"

Sure a spirit is big and scary and hard to kill, but oppose it with enough force and you should be able to beat it, whether it's a mana bolt or a rocket launcher

I underestand, but if everything works for everything (like energy is energy), welcome to the World of Warcraft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Min-maxers will keeping on choosing whats most effective, and everything else will (indeed) be sub-optimal.

Is mush better to add variaty to the game that you need at least 3 or 4 different kinds of characters in the party, so you have most aspects of the game covered. At least I prefer to play a game that is not a "lone wolf game".

Just my 2 cents on this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Lionhearted]

That's preferable to "oh you don't have an X? Well tough luck, you lose"
Funnily enough that was an issue in WoW for the longest time, especially during Burning crusade

[Cain]

Actually I would suggest something entirelly different: to have just ONE resourse pool.

During characters generation, at least, everything should be bought with just ONE resourse (points, karma etc.). This would tremendously reduce the situation where min-maxers just choose based on whats more effective, instead of choosing what fits in the character concept.

Honestly, that's what we have now, and it doesn't work. It leads to increased fiddliness and encourages min/maxing, because it's easier to minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths when you can draw from all aspects equally. I prefer the original priority systems, a template system. It's harder to min/max, still provides lots of flexibility in character creation, and is faster and easier to use.

[Sage2000]

That's preferable to "oh you don't have an X? Well tough luck, you lose"
Funnily enough that was an issue in WoW for the longest time, especially during Burning crusade

Well, Its an opinion.

I rather see this, and have diversity, uniqueness of roles, tham a party all composed of super-cyber/magic fellows. All kinda looking the same.

I remmember someone posting last week, saying that his streetsam was: a better hacker tham the hacker, a better face tham the face etc. Basic his super-cyber was better tham everyone in his party, becuse of the huge atributed/cybered dice-pools.

I suggest the game developers walk away from that.

Anyway, it's an opinion.

Ah! About WoW (dont we love that game?), the solution implemented recently was to bring unique buffs/debuffs to the raids (the party). Give people reasons to play diferent characters, not parties entirelly composed of paladins, for example.

We do not have the "buffs" in Shadow, but the idea of everyone colaborating is much more apealing to me than the lose wolf thing. Yes I do like DnD 4th edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif)

[Draco18s]

Actually I would suggest something entirelly different: to have just ONE resourse pool.

Actually, that's part of the problem. By having a single resource (BP/Karma) has is effectively interchangable (you spend BP to get money, etc.) people find the lowest cost way to do X.

That cost being measured in BP.

Anyone ever watched Gargoyles?
It got a rather neat take on magic, basically.
"Remember that energy is energy, no matter the source"

Great line. I've made reference to it myself.
(Although I've come to the conclusion that that particular story arc was below par for the series*)

*I don't count the third season as canon and therefore not counted when making averages.

[All4BigGuns]

I prefer the original priority systems, a template system. It's harder to min/max, still provides lots of flexibility in character creation, and is faster and easier to use.

Prefer the crap-tastic Priority all you want. It doesn't change the fact that saying that Priority is the most railroading of all the generation systems. Priority is a dinosaur from 1st ed that needs to be taken out to pasture and shot.