[X] My Assistant

[_Pax._]

[...]very-low dice-pool-size [...]

May I ask, what you define as low, medium, and high were DPs are concerned?

[Draco18s]

May I ask, what you define as low, medium, and high were DPs are concerned?

The last time I played, "normal" was around 14 dice in a primary skill.*

Secondary skills are generally around 10-12, with "this will come up at some point" skills at 8.

We didn't see crit glitches all that often (if at all). And yes, that was including my character trying to use a single valid ID card to get a security system to recognize the party as authorized employees--I think I had 3 dice on the last person, needing 1 success.** I had glitched a...swimming? role the previous session though, which was likewise all of like 4 dice.


*except this one new player, who's character was built by the GM, and had something like 30 armor--hooray cyber. That was pretty much his skill though: being a wall.

**I don't recall the exact details, but it was super-tight, and I totally blew through something like 4 points of edge that session, leaving me with 1 point in case of emergencies.

[_Pax._]

The last time I played, "normal" was around 14 dice in a primary skill.*

I would suggest, resepectfully, that it's not Tymaeus' table that's "especially low". Rather, I wold characterise your table as being a bti on the high side. Not by a huge margin, but by a few dice nonetheless.

[Umidori]

Dropping those numbers by 2 or 3 dice would vastly raise the odds of glitches and critical glitches.

~Umi

[Epicedion]

Dropping those numbers by 2 or 3 dice would vastly raise the odds of glitches and critical glitches.

~Umi

Over about 6 dice glitches and critical glitches trend toward statistical insignificance. It's a bad critical failure system port from a mechanic that used far fewer dice for regular tasks.

There should definitely be a new glitch/critical glitch system.

[Dolanar]

As to the reason I went Way of the Warrior was primarily that the character had more invested in combat than in his Infiltration so it made sense at the time.

[All4BigGuns]

Over about 6 dice glitches and critical glitches trend toward statistical insignificance. It's a bad critical failure system port from a mechanic that used far fewer dice for regular tasks.

There should definitely be a new glitch/critical glitch system.

A glitch or critical glitch SHOULD be exceptionally rare, and should be handled carefully by the GM to create a memorable moment for years to come--not simply to screw the player over in some fashion for having an unlucky die roll.

[Umidori]

I personally like the custom dice system used in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire. The interactions between Success/Failure and Advantage/Threat serve to fulfill the same general function as glitches and critical glitches, but it feels much smoother and a little more robust.

Rolling up some Threat is roughly analogous to Glitching in the fact that if you fail your roll with Threat, it makes the failure worse, and even if you suceed at the roll, you still mess up somehow. But the opposite effect, Advantage, has no counterpart in SR. If you roll an Advantage, your successes are more successful and even your failures still give you some benefit. For example, if you fail an attack roll, but generate Advantage in doing so, you may not have inflicted any damage, but either you are now in a better position or your opponent is now in a worse one.

Now, yes, we are talking two very different systems with very different points of balance. I'd never suggest trying to just use the custom dice rules of one game in place of the dice rules of another. But EotE could at least serve as a point of comparison or a source of inspiration regarding ways to tweak the SR system.

~Umi

[Epicedion]

Thinking about it, I could come up with some suggestions:

Incorporate a "glitch die" -- on any test, have a way to identify one of the dice from the others (by having it a different color or size or something). Any time that die comes up a "1" on an otherwise successful test there is a glitch (minor complication). A glitch combined with a failure (read as "no dice on 5's or 6's" in the event of an opposed test where net successes are used) is a critical glitch (major complication). That would put a static 16.67% chance for a glitch on any test (no matter how many dice), while the probability would scale from a maximum of 16.67% (with one die) to 11.11% (with 2 dice) to 7.41% (with 3 dice) to 4.94% (with 4 dice) and so on. By the time you get to 8 dice it's something like 0.0017%, which is pretty much never going to happen.

[Draco18s]

I would suggest, resepectfully, that it's not Tymaeus' table that's "especially low". Rather, I wold characterise your table as being a bti on the high side. Not by a huge margin, but by a few dice nonetheless.

14 dice in a primary skill is not high. Nor is it particularly hard depending on the skill. And I really should have put "12-14." 14 was THE top-end of primary skills at the table.

4 (6) stat + 4 skill + 2 tool* gets you 12. None of that would be considered more than "above average human" with "light augmentation"

*Smart link, when considering something like firearms.
Case and point: my drake gun-bunny (who was terrible, as being an orc would have freed up some 80 BP and actually come out better stat wise to boot) had 12 dice to firing a gun. And only 3 points of recoil compensation. He never fired more than a shot and long burst in the same pass. Didn't have the highest body count, but also didn't get shot either (largely due to the player-vampire who thought it would be a good idea to 'get into melee range with that guy with the shotgun')

[Lionhearted]

'Largely due to the player-vampire who thought it would be a good idea to 'get into melee range with that guy with the shotgun'

Regeneration is a funny thing, lots of hoping that they don't have silver slugs though.

[Draco18s]

Regeneration is a funny thing, lots of hoping that they don't have silver slugs though.

The guy didn't have silver slugs, but the vamp was totally out of the fight having done exactly zilch.

[Stahlseele]

under SR3 Rules, the Regeneration Power was a much more 1:0 thing.
either you regenerate it all at once right then, or you keel over dead.

[Draco18s]

under SR3 Rules, the Regeneration Power was a much more 1:0 thing.
either you regenerate it all at once right then, or you keel over dead.

And the above scenario was in SR4, so this comment is irrelevant. *Tips hat*

[_Pax._]

14 dice in a primary skill is not high.

Not at your table, maybe. But it certainly looks high to me.

4 (6) stat + 4 skill + 2 tool* gets you 12. None of that would be considered more than "above average human" with "light augmentation"

And I would consider that - a 10-12 pool - to be the norm for primary skill, for a starting character. Just about two dice less than you suggest.

Like I said, I don't hink your table is high by a lot ... but by a little, yeah, I do. In fact, look at your post ... see every DP range you posted? Drop 2 dice, and you're at where I aim for, unless I am consciously trying for "high power" (like the 1K Karma builds I do "just for fun"). Those tend to get 4-8 dice more than your table's Primary Skill average (depending on how thinly I have to spread the "primary skill" definition).

*shrug*

I'm not saying you're playing wrong, Draco. I just think you're playing a bit higher DP than a lot of games mgiht, and so, Tymaeus' table might not really be "very low". Instead, maybe he's "a bit low" compared to your "a bit high".

[All4BigGuns]

Not at your table, maybe. But it certainly looks high to me.


And I would consider that - a 10-12 pool - to be the norm for primary skill, for a starting character. Just about two dice less than you suggest.

Like I said, I don't hink your table is high by a lot ... but by a little, yeah, I do. In fact, look at your post ... see every DP range you posted? Drop 2 dice, and you're at where I aim for, unless I am consciously trying for "high power" (like the 1K Karma builds I do "just for fun"). Those tend to get 4-8 dice more than your table's Primary Skill average (depending on how thinly I have to spread the "primary skill" definition).

*shrug*

I'm not saying you're playing wrong, Draco. I just think you're playing a bit higher DP than a lot of games mgiht, and so, Tymaeus' table might not really be "very low". Instead, maybe he's "a bit low" compared to your "a bit high".

Primary area of expertise should probably have 14 to 16 with secondary areas having anywhere from 8 to 12. That said, unlike some posters on this forum and the other one, I'm not going to give the "stink eye" to someone who comes in with 20 to 22 in their primary.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What kinds of spells are the mages at your table casting?

Well, we run the gamut... From Elemental Combat Spells to Physical Manipulations. F/2-1 to F/2+7. No different from most tables I would assume. *shrug*

As for spirits, they're only supposed to spend edge to resist if you/the mage abuses spirits. What you've done at your table there is a house rule.

Nope.. Here you are completely and totally wrong. Any creature with an Edge stat can use it just like a Character can do. And at our table, any spirit above Force 3 does so as a matter of course. It is NOT a house rule, as I have informed you many times before. You can find NOTHING that indicates when a Spirit may, or may not, spend his Edge. *shrug*

Table Issue. Your table is frequently a very-low dice-pool-size table, and you've all agreed as such. If I were to show up with any character I've ever built--and none of them are twinkish--I suspect that I'd outclass any single character at your table.

You are wrong again. we run the Average for Dice Pools which is 8-12 (as supported by about every single example of any type of character you care to show me in the book) with competent DP's in the 14 DP range.

I dare say that you would not. A character is not a Dice Pool, and you often seem to forget that. *shrug*
We have had monstrous dice characters (18-26) and to be honest, they were quite.... Boring. *shrug*

[Draco18s]

And at our table, any spirit above Force 3 does so as a matter of course

THAT is the exact house rule I am referring to. RAW says no such thing about "any spirit above Force X will resist summoning/binding with Edge."

A spirit may because it has it, but the house rule you have is that it always does so.

[Smash]

Not at your table, maybe. But it certainly looks high to me.


And I would consider that - a 10-12 pool - to be the norm for primary skill, for a starting character. Just about two dice less than you suggest.

Like I said, I don't hink your table is high by a lot ... but by a little, yeah, I do. In fact, look at your post ... see every DP range you posted? Drop 2 dice, and you're at where I aim for, unless I am consciously trying for "high power" (like the 1K Karma builds I do "just for fun"). Those tend to get 4-8 dice more than your table's Primary Skill average (depending on how thinly I have to spread the "primary skill" definition).

*shrug*

I'm not saying you're playing wrong, Draco. I just think you're playing a bit higher DP than a lot of games mgiht, and so, Tymaeus' table might not really be "very low". Instead, maybe he's "a bit low" compared to your "a bit high".

I just want overall less dice. Picking up 25 dice for a roll is tedious and then trying to become a generalist with pools of 4-8 is a monumental waste of time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

THAT is the exact house rule I am referring to. RAW says no such thing about "any spirit above Force X will resist summoning/binding with Edge."

A spirit may because it has it, but the house rule you have is that it always does so.

Again, you are wrong. ALL Spirits May, as a matter of course.
If I stated that All spirits did so, would that be more RAW for you? ALL MegaCorps MAY wipe any shadowrunner out of existence, on a whim, if they so desired. Is it a Houserule if that is enforced? *shakes head*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I just want overall less dice. Picking up 25 dice for a roll is tedious and then trying to become a generalist with pools of 4-8 is a monumental waste of time.

Yes, 25 Dice is tedious, and very, very boring after about 2 sesions. If you can never fail, there is no challenge. *shrug*
And before someone says that they can fail in their non-ficused skills, I would agree with you, IF THEY EVER ATTEMPTED ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THEIR SPECIALTY. In my experience, when you have someone who insists on playing the 20+ Dice specialist, they just leave their non-specialty focus to someone else (the particular specialist with 20+ Dice in that Specialty), so they never have to bother with it. It gets real boring watching that, real quick.

Why is trying to become a generalist with 8 dice a waste of time? It is very doable. I have one now. 50+ Skills, most of them in the 7-9 DP Range, with primary skills at the 12 DP range, and secondary skills at 10 DP. Yes, there are a few at ONLY 6 Dice, but so what. The character is very good at his chosen primary skills, not bad with his secondaries, and can backstop every other character at the table with the rest of his skills. and he covers a LOT of areas that no-one else covers. He is a blast to play, and he is pretty damned competent.

[Draco18s]

Again, you are wrong. ALL Spirits May, as a matter of course.
If I stated that All spirits did so, would that be more RAW for you?

I didn't say it was against RAW for spirits to spend edge. I said it was a house rule that all spirits WILL spend edge. Every time, all the time, without fail, provided [a condition that your table agreed upon, which is stated nowhere in the books].

ALL MegaCorps MAY wipe any shadowrunner out of existence, on a whim, if they so desired. Is it a Houserule if that is enforced? *shakes head*

Stawman.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I didn't say it was against RAW for spirits to spend edge. I said it was a house rule that all spirits WILL spend edge. Every time, all the time, without fail, provided [a condition that your table agreed upon, which is stated nowhere in the books].

Does not need to be stated in the books. Spirits will spend EDGE whenever they desire to do so. Higher power spirits (Force 4+) will spend it to resist servitude. Since that fits into the parameters of "whenever they desire to do so" it is not a Houserule. Does that preclude a Higher Power spirit from NOT spending that EDGE? Absolutely not, but that (Spirit NOT spending the Edge to resist) will take effort and time on the Magician's part to establish that relationship. Most of the players in our game do not take the time to do so. *shrug*

No worries, though, I get that we have different opinions on how to keep the game flowing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Higher power spirits (Force 4+) will spend it to resist servitude.

So says what passage?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So says what passage?

No passage needed, it is a personal decision, as all EDGE expenditure is. DO YOU LIKE SERVITUDE?
Just because we run it that way does not mean it is a House RULE. It is the view we hold on spirits in the game world.