Character Creation: BP and Viability Options

[DnDer]

I am still struggling with this concept at making viable characters off standard BP.

I'm trying to make a well-rounded PC, a generalist (see my Russian ex-spy thread), and I'm coming up short on every angle at the standard 400 BP. Well-rounded stats turn me out to almost 300 BP for starters, and even dialing that back brings me to still around 240. Trying to buy up skills and skill groups quickly gets expensive for the variety I need, and then I run short on BP for knowledge, languages and gear.

Buying the SAME stats out of PACKS brings me down to an even 200 (Jack of All Trades). But looking at the skill kits afterwards, I find I'm quickly running out of points as well. To pick up a little handguns and automatics (veteran levels), plus some basic hand to hand (brown belt), and then I need to pick up sneaking/social packs, I'm SOL on anything for equipment and languages (of which I need to pick up several) and contacts.

There aren't enough negative traits in the world to make a good generalist viable.

. . .

Gear, I can probably deal with, as that will probably be procure on site, or from a working stipend by my boss. So, I could forego all but the most basic of firearms and maglock pickers, probably.

I mean contacts are going to run me up probably close to 40 points alone as a generalist spy... And to dabble in so many skill sets leaves me either a very bad spy (1-2 dice in everything I need), or ends up as a specialist, which was totally not the objective.

I'm of the "understanding" that PACKS aren't supposed to mix with general BP, so I wasn't looking at cheaping out on 300 points in stats in a 200 pack and then just buying up skills with the extra breathing room. That seemed an abuse of the system, right?

I'm not looking for an ubermensch PC, here. I'm trying to figure out how I had a mage who was throwing some 13 dice at manipulation spells last session... and now a spy who won't be throwing more than 6 for anything he does. Hardly seems like being good at what I do, no?

This has been something I've been tinkering and playing with for days, and I still can't make the numbers add up. Do I have a bad sense of scale or something for this new (to me) edition?

. . .

Also, are there rules for "language skill groups?" Like if I wanted to buy "languages of the balkan states" as an example, or "romance languages."

[Critias]

It's got less to do with a BP/PACKs/Karmagen difference, and more to do with a specialist/generalist split. It's easy to be great at one or two things. It's really hard to be viably decent at lots and lots of things; some of that's just the nature of RPGs in general, really, rather than being specific to this (or any) particular game.

[DnDer]

What do you recommend? Specialization in a few things? Or throwing 2 dice for a skill rating on more things?

Also, can't think of too many RPGs that gave you the option to be a generalist. Now that I have it, I'm finding myself not terribly inclined to be one... But the group needs one to fill holes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can get a generalist character into the mix using Karmagen (750 Karma), but you have to be happy with DP's from 8-10 (specialties to 12 or so). My Generalist Unaugmented/Non-Magical Mercenary came out pretty well, with about 50 skills (Many in Broken Groups); with his focus skills (about a dozen or so, IIRC) in the 8-10 Base DP range, 3-4 Skills at 12 DP, and the remaining ones at 6-8 or so DP. At our table, that is pretty good DP's, overall. Maybe not as good as a Specialist at our table (12-14 DP in Specialty Skills), but it is nothing to sneeze at. Of course, his stats are average to just a bit above average (he is a Human), and he only has a SIngle Pass innately, but so what. *shrug*

[bannockburn]

Personally, I prefer the Karma system, with a few tweaks, for well rounded characters.
750 Karma, and either free knowledge skill points as in BP system or free connection ratings (Cha*2), AND metatypes costing Karma equal to their BP*(whatever you like, 1 or 2, usually), with special attributes not counting towards the 50% limit.

Either that, or 500 BP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DnDer]

I'm flipping through my SR4a book. Where are the rules on karmagen?

[bannockburn]

Whoops. In the companion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Basically, it uses the advancement tables for character generation. Upside: It also gives you a better way to gauge the character's scaling, as BP are not made the same when spent for different things (such as Power Focus 4 at character generation *sigh*)

[DnDer]

*sigh*

Of course they are.

Maybe next time, then. I'll have to work with packs for right now, just for expediency's sake. I'll see about picking up the Companion tonight (hey, I thought everyone said it was a bad book?) and wondering if my GM will let me go back and tweak into what I want...

I'll have to do a lot of tap dancing to avoid using my 6-8 sized dice pools. Or I'll take a back seat, and supervise from the van. I suppose I can Morgan Grimes it up for a session or two. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[bannockburn]

I don't know why the Runner's Companion should be a bad book. Disregard the infected and it's perfectly fine (that's just a personal opinion. some people apparently love playing SR:The Masquerade) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It also has more qualities and a more detailed lifestyle system, an advanced contacts system and the possibility to play oddities such as free spirits, infected, changelings or sapient critters.
It's a good investment, IMO, and one of the books I'd cite as 'core' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

400 BP is enough to make you either a decent specialist or a poor generalist. My players found that all of them were lacking a fair few pretty essential skills after chargen. Despite having pretty well rounded characters.

Personally I think you should narrow your focus a bit, being a generalist doesn't mean you need to know everything.
Avoid groups unless it's absolutely necessary and if you absolutely need a skillgroup consider having it at a lower rating, like 2 or 3.
For example, you could pick up Close combat but if you instead pick up only clubs you could have it at a higher rating and pay less.

You should definitely dial back on the contacts, 15-20 points tops. Remember that your contacts have contacts and you don't need to know everyone, just someone that does.

With languages you should generally only need 4 or so dice to carry out a normal conversation, good intuition should take care of that (which an ex-spy need anyway)
Remember that knowledge skills are 2bp per rating and you get your logic+intuitionx3 free BP
Otherwise there is always linguasoft.

Makes priorities with your attributes
Agi,Rea,Int are always worth your time.
Cha is only essential for faces or mages
Logic is only important if you want to build stuff or do magic.
Body and Will: Remember that they are more effective at odd numbers and basically useless for skills.
Str the great dump stat! there's so many ways to compensate for not having str.

and remember that for mundanes, gear is the great equaliser.

[bannockburn]

The thing I dislike most about the BP system (@400BP, that is) is that I never feel like I've made a well rounded character. I tend to not specialize (much, usually one core skill, though) and chose skills and attributes according to background. There is no playing around in such a constrained system if you want to be reasonably powerful as well :-\

[Lionhearted]

What I like about 400 BP is that it does restrict in that way. Makes the progression you gain through playing actually feel meaningful.
Although it does screw over some archetypes (like TMs) pretty severely

[bannockburn]

I assure you, my progression always feels meaningful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Admittedly, it's just a matter of taste, though. It just doesn't feel like a proper runner to me, more like an upstart ganger. And I've played the Ork Street Samurai archetype from the street samurai catalog (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DireRadiant]

400 BP is plenty if you don't consider an 8 dice pool as the worst thing in the world.

It's better than defaulting, and is above average.

8 dice going against 20 does kind of suck though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

When running a game the general scale of opposition the PC will be operating against is something I make clear up front.

[bannockburn]

That's a really good point. It also helps to see how the rest of the group is statted out.

[Lionhearted]

well 400 BP is supposed to be the "new players in town", 500 BP represent the Veterans with more then one scar to their name.

[bannockburn]

Yes. And when I made characters in SR3 with the usual amount of BP, they already were, in average, seasoned runners who knew the biz, and with points left over to have some odd skills. In SR4, they are not, or so specialized that you think they're fresh from a cloning tank. At least in my opinion and feeling ... So, personal preference, nothing more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyways, I think this discussion has been had before, and I don't think it is of much help to the OP if we start reiterating it.
Your tips to make the most of 400BP are as viable as my explanation about my generally used creation system and very helpful, as opposed to that other discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

BP are an input to a one time process that generates PC Dice Pools that are used frequently.

I don't focus on BP when describing chargen. I ask players to think about if they want the 1-3 dice pools they use most frequently to always, or most or sometimes win. Then we can look at the set of secondary dice pools.

You then have to factor in context. If you build a kick ass gun bunny, but the game never has situations that involve shooting, then that 20 dice Pistols pools really doesn't matter.

BP numbers are just small variable in a much larger complex system.

For the OP the answer I would have is to start with more BP, as that seems to be the type of game the OP is in.

[bannockburn]

BP numbers are just small variable in a much larger complex system.

I also agree to the rest of your post, but the above quote is very valuable, IMO.
That's why it leads, in my experience, to a much better enjoyment of the game if a group of players build their characters together with each other and the GM, or at least stay in contact during the process and are open to feedback

[DnDer]

We have a face, a hacker, and someone templated off the ex-spec ops archetype. Everyone's new to the game but me and nominally the GM. He knows what he's doing running the game. I'm supposed to come in as a handler to try to fill some gaps and bring some new skills in (as well as to ensure loyalty).

Here's what I came out with for 400 BP. (The scenario is going to be tied closely with the Vory and the narco-trade in Seattle and PNW in general, so I dropped a few knowledge skills someone who [mostly] sat behind a desk in intelligence would have had.) We'll see what I'm allowed to do with karmagen afterwards, if anything. I've got a pool of karma to spend based on my last character who retired, but I won't spend it until I have the final okay from the GM about chargen.


Metatype: Human

Quality: Blandness

Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 3
Intellect 3
Logic 3
Willpower 3

Blades 3
Unarmed Combat 3
Automatics 2
Pistols 3

Pilot Ground 3
Pilot Aircraft 1
Pilot Watercraft 1

Etiquette 3
Negotiations 3

Language: English 3
Language: German 2
Language: Czech 1
Language: Polish 1

Perception 3
Shadowing 3

Computer 2
First Aid 2


(18 Free Knowledge)
International Travel Procedures 2
Vory Heirarchy 3
Russian Intelligence Heirarchy 3
Counter-Intel Procedures 4
Money Laundering and Bank Fraud Procedures 2
Narcotics Distribution Channels and Methods 2
Agent Evaluation and Review Requirements 2

Gear 15000

CONTACTS
Senior Intelligence Officer 2/2
Vory Boss 1/1
Black Market Vendor 1/1
Money Launderer 2/1

[bannockburn]

You're missing athletics skills. This can bite you, and fast. I'd save at First Aid, the piloting skills and put the saved stuff into attributes and maybe con or weapon skills, depending on the direction where you want to take the character. As someone else is playing a face, maybe even save on negotiation and etiquette.

And get some negative qualities as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Looking over it:
I just entered this into chummer.
Without accounting for edge, I've got 130 BP remaining

Not sure about the languages.
You seem to have no Native language (which is free) and the rest aren't rolled into the free knowledge skill points?

[Lionhearted]

It feels like you're missing points somewhere... Did you pay for the 1s in the attributes?
1 or 3 in body, 2 makes no difference for damage track compared to 1.
Language skills are knowledge skills.
Would you mind putting BP allocation next to the sections for easy of reference?

[Iduno]

Cyberware/bioware can get you better stats for relatively few BP, and you'll want good stats as a generalist. Skillwires are also good for getting skills for fewer BP, but only if you have them at rating 4 (if I remember the math correctly, there was a thread around here a while ago). You probably want the expert system with that, considering how little it costs.

Karmagen will change the math on this some, but cheaper costs for lower stats and skills makes the trade-off worth it.

[DnDer]

Russian is my native language. That's why I didn't list it. All the others were paid for using BP.

I have to run to my game now, but I'll show my GM the thread after, so I can correct any expenditure mistakes. I'm such an amateur... smh.



Item/Rank/BP Cost


Metatype: Human 0
Quality: Blandness 10
Body 2 20
Agility 3 30
Reaction 3 30
Strength 2 20
Charisma 3 30
Intellect 3 30
Logic 3 30
Willpower 3 30

Blades 3 12
Unarmed Combat 3 12
Automatics 2 8
Pistols 3 12

Pilot Ground 3 12
Pilot Aircraft 1 4
Pilot Watercraft 1 4

Etiquette 3 12
Negotiations 3 12

Language: English 3 12
Language: German 2 8
Language: Czech 1 4
Language: Polish 1 4

Perception 3 12
Shadowing 3 12

Computer 2 8
First Aid 2 8


(18 Free Knowledge)
International Travel Procedures 2
Vory Heirarchy 3
Russian Intelligence Heirarchy 3
Counter-Intel Procedures 4
Money Laundering and Bank Fraud Procedures 2
Narcotics Distribution Channels and Methods 2
Agent Evaluation and Review Requirements 2

Gear 15000 3

CONTACTS
Senior Intelligence Officer 2/2 4
Vory Boss 1/1 2
Black Market Vendor 1/1 2
Money Launderer 2/1 3

[bannockburn]

Ah, that's why your points are off.
The first point in all the attributes doesn't cost anything. So you actually only payed 140BP for attributes, not 220 (that is, assuming an edge of 2)
Also, knowledge skills (and in extension, your languages) only cost rating*2, not rating*4 as you calculated, so there you have another batch of freed up BP

I recommend downloading the cummer character generator at http://www.chummergen.com/
It makes it much easier to click together the character and re-adjust (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)