[X] My Assistant

[Lionhearted]

Tavarisch, you don't pay for the racial minimum of an attribute.
So a elf raising agility to 3 only pays 10 points.
Language skills are knowledge skills not active skills, so you got a whole bunch of extra points there.

Edit: Beat me to it Bannock
Edit 2: Point still stands you want odd values in Body and Willpower as it adds half your value rounded up for damage tracks

[DnDer]

Facepalm.

I'll get these numbers cleaned up and reposted for an audit in probably the next day or two.

[Glyph]

I would really consider linguisofts for this character. A rating: 4 linguisoft only costs 2,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , and you only need a datajack to use them.

[DnDer]

This makes 400, based on what you told me.

Definitely picked up the Athletics group, picked up a couple other skills (like Dodge), and then rounded up a couple of my contacts' numbers. I also rounded out my important stats to odd numbers, as advised.

My GM has told me, because of my role with the group (as a character and a player), I can build up to 500 BP.

There's a couple things I want to address before I buy up to 500. I picked the drive skills because no one in the group really HAS any to speak of. I know a little of the over-arcing idea about the plot: magic will be relevant, but not the be-all, end-all that we need a full-on mage (to the best of my understanding). Is adept, with my last hundred points (just one or two powers [perception, senses maybe?], and some assensing), worth my time? Or magician with a couple divination/detection type spells?

He's also letting me karmagen, to compare the final results (equivalent of 500 bp). I still need to read those before they try it -- he gave me some copies of it.


Metatype: Human 0

Quality: Blandness 10

Body 3 20
Agility 3 20
Reaction 3 20
Strength 3 20
Charisma 3 20
Intellect 3 20
Logic 3 20
Willpower 3 20

Athletics Group 3 30

Blades 3 12
Unarmed Combat 3 12
Automatics 3 12
Pistols 3 12

Dodge 3 12
Pilot Ground 3 12
Pilot Aircraft 1 4
Pilot Watercraft 1 4

Con 3 12
Etiquette 3 12
Negotiations 3 12

Language: English 3 6
Language: German 2 4
Language: Czech 1 2
Language: Polish 1 2

Infiltration 2 8
Perception 3 12
Shadowing 3 12

Computer 2 8
First Aid 2 8


(18 Free Knowledge)
International Travel Procedures 2
Vory Heirarchy 3
Russian Intelligence Heirarchy 3
Counter-Intel Procedures 4
Money Laundering and Bank Fraud Procedures 2
Narcotics Distribution Channels and Methods 2
Agent Evaluation and Review Requirements 2

Gear 15000 3

CONTACTS
Senior Intelligence Officer 2/3 5
Vory Boss 3/2 5
Black Market Vendor 2/1 3
Money Launderer 4/2 6


EDIT: Edge!! That's what I forgot! For a spy, especially a 'runner... I need to get at least 20 points free (maybe a couple negative qualities?) to get me about 2 more points of edge to pool me to 4... (EDIT2: Considering the role, maybe SINner? Not like the agency won't provide me fake ones when I'm, say, out on assignment.)

[DnDer]

I would really consider linguisofts for this character. A rating: 4 linguisoft only costs 2,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , and you only need a datajack to use them.

Mechanically, not a bad idea. Tell me, though, from a philosophical standpoint: Why? If you can't do you job without being chipped, especially as spy, why wouldn't all spies be chipped out so they can do robot espionage? There's a human element that machines just can't replace, right?

[Neraph]

That seems rather... Simple.

Try getting some Negative Qualities so you can fill out the character more. Some examples would be: some addictions, maybe an allergy, and maybe Sensitive Neural Structure/System for changing your Blades and Unarmed into Close Combat group (it would only cost you another 6 BP to get a 3 in Clubs), maybe converting that Pistols to Firearms group, or maybe getting some specializations.

To expand on specializations: I'd rather have Driving 1 spec'd for Cars or Bikes than Driving 3, and you save some BP for it too. Same thing with weapon skills - I normally take like Automatics 2 or 3 spec'd for Assault/SMG/Machine Pistols rather than just leaving it at a 2 or 3. For a minimal investment of 2 BP you end up getting 2 more dice for your particular favored action (which is why they call it a specialization, after all).

Also, getting some negative qualities would also allow you to get some more positive ones. I'm not sure what books you have access to, but Runner's Companion has some other PQs that you may like, like Linguist.

You may also want to consider getting some augmentations - there are plenty of augments that would help a generalist out, like Muscle Toner/Augmentation (or really any 'ware that increases attributes), Skillwires, Reflex Recorders, and cybereyes/ears. That's just the core book too.

I really don't think you need 500 BP to make a quality generalist. You just need to know what general skills you want and how good you want to be with them.

EDIT:

Mechanically, not a bad idea. Tell me, though, from a philosophical standpoint: Why? If you can't do you job without being chipped, especially as spy, why wouldn't all spies be chipped out so they can do robot espionage? There's a human element that machines just can't replace, right?

The standard CIA agent has an implanted comm and that's it. Just speaking the language doesn't mean you aren't still the etiquette/negotiator who can also drive anything and is a crack-shot with pistols. If they need you in a country that doesn't speak the same language that you know then you're only 3,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) from speaking the language nearly fluently - no need to retrain someone else with your particular skillset. We're not talking about chipping your physical skills, just your language.

Also note that linguasofts have to be accessed with either a sim module or datajack, and sim modules can be accessed through trodes and an external machine.

[Critias]

I'm about to sound kind of dickish here, and I apologize for that, but...

Mechanically, not a bad idea. Tell me, though, from a philosophical standpoint: Why? If you can't do you job without being chipped, especially as spy, why wouldn't all spies be chipped out so they can do robot espionage? There's a human element that machines just can't replace, right?

Uhh, because it's Shadowrun, and the missing human element is kind of a given (for most characters). Corps and intelligence agencies don't care about the philosophical standpoint, they care about the bottom line.

[All4BigGuns]

To expand on specializations: I'd rather have Driving 1 spec'd for Cars or Bikes than Driving 3, and you save some BP for it too. Same thing with weapon skills - I normally take like Automatics 2 or 3 spec'd for Assault/SMG/Machine Pistols rather than just leaving it at a 2 or 3. For a minimal investment of 2 BP you end up getting 2 more dice for your particular favored action (which is why they call it a specialization, after all).

With Pilot Groundcraft, you can just get the specialization from the core book "Wheeled" rather than "Car" or "Bike".

[Glyph]

From a philisophical standpoint, I could see spies go either way. I think even a spy who favored knowing languages naturally would still have a datajack and some linguisofts, because there are only so many languages most spies could realistically know from learning them the hard way.

I think this character desperately needs some magic or some augmentations. Generalists are often so weak precisely because they don't take advantage of either, despite needing it even more. Dice pools of 8-10 in a lot of areas may not be optimal, but are functional at least. Dice pools of 6, though, don't really do much. Remember, this is a game where dice penalties for various things are common.

Karmagen would be good for this particular build because karma costs are exponential, rather than flat. At the low end, three's and under, skills and Attributes are cheap. Even with the base 750 karma, you would have a lot of karma left over to improve the character. Either way you go, I would get the influence skill group at 3 rather than the individual skills, which would save you points/karma and give you leadership: 3.

[Neraph]

With Pilot Groundcraft, you can just get the specialization from the core book "Wheeled" rather than "Car" or "Bike".

*gag*

[Neraph]

From a philisophical standpoint, I could see spies go either way. I think even a spy who favored knowing languages naturally would still have a datajack and some linguisofts, because there are only so many languages most spies could realistically know from learning them the hard way.

Adepts with Linguistic power and Linguist PQ are amazing for this. Give me a few days with some trids that have been subb'ed into many languages and I will know every language ever.

[DnDer]

Also, getting some negative qualities would also allow you to get some more positive ones. I'm not sure what books you have access to, but Runner's Companion has some other PQs that you may like, like Linguist.

SR4a
Runner's Toolkit

I might also have access to a copy of RC for the next couple of days, too. I'll page through that, in the meantime.

[DnDer]

Karmagen would be good for this particular build because karma costs are exponential, rather than flat. At the low end, three's and under, skills and Attributes are cheap. Even with the base 750 karma, you would have a lot of karma left over to improve the character. Either way you go, I would get the influence skill group at 3 rather than the individual skills, which would save you points/karma and give you leadership: 3.

When is Leadership an applicable skill? It certainly makes sense for a character like mine, but, "You want your team to do follow your instructions. You roll leadership. The PCs... do whatever the hell they want."

Intimidate and other skills, I understand their use on opposing NPCs. But the core book didn't offer me many answers on how Leadership, while being good on paper, would be anything but a karma-sink in play?

[All4BigGuns]

When is Leadership an applicable skill? It certainly makes sense for a character like mine, but, "You want your team to do follow your instructions. You roll leadership. The PCs... do whatever the hell they want."

Intimidate and other skills, I understand their use on opposing NPCs. But the core book didn't offer me many answers on how Leadership, while being good on paper, would be anything but a karma-sink in play?

I believe more info on the Leadership skill was put into War!, so you could pick up the PDF of that for that purpose (PDF being cheaper).

[Glyph]

Leadership involves things like morale, strategy, and tactics, in addition to either exploiting NPCs who have accepted your disguise as someone of a higher rank, or taking charge in an emergency (getting a bunch of panicking people to exit a burning building in a relatively orderly fashion, etc.). As the general "Do what I tell you to do" skill, it makes sense for spies and faces to have it - although I would advise not to use it on other PCs, as that is stepping onto a minefield of potential arguments and bad feelings.

It doesn't have to be a karma sink. You get it with the influence skill group, which is still cheaper to improve than improving the other three skills in it individually.

[Lionhearted]

Mechanically, not a bad idea. Tell me, though, from a philosophical standpoint: Why? If you can't do you job without being chipped, especially as spy, why wouldn't all spies be chipped out so they can do robot espionage? There's a human element that machines just can't replace, right?

Being mundane and unaugmented is a good way to get geeked, philosophy is useless when you're dead.
Also if you got a chip that let you speak fluent "what-is-this-language-I-never-heard-of-it" albeit stilted, why wouldn't you use it? It's not like were asking you to run skillwires through your spine. Although you probably should, on the street. Chrome is the great equaliser, get some and swallow that purist nonsense it will only net you a trip to the morgue.

*comes out of character* Personally I would spend a bit more on attributes, great net return especially if you're going for 500. with 400 160-200, with 500 180-240 (excluding edge) bear in mind that attributes are expensive to raise with karma.

[Irion]

It's got less to do with a BP/PACKs/Karmagen difference, and more to do with a specialist/generalist split. It's easy to be great at one or two things. It's really hard to be viably decent at lots and lots of things; some of that's just the nature of RPGs in general, really, rather than being specific to this (or any) particular game.

The point is, that BP sucks for generalist. It is as easy as that.
The Karma cost still kick you in the nuts, but it is not as bad.

3 skill groups at 2 just cost you 60 BP, which is more 1/7 of your Points.
It would "only" cost you 60 Karma, which would be less than 1/10 of your Karma points.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*gag*

Why? As goofy as it sounds, it is a viable specialization; even if I do choose Bike/Car myself.

[Neraph]

Why? As goofy as it sounds, it is a viable specialization; even if I do choose Bike/Car myself.

It just seems about as cheesy as Elemental Strike (Sonic) or Spirit Bane (Watcher). There are things that even I don't do.

[bannockburn]

Which just shows that there are different tastes in what people won't do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To comment on the character as posted:
I agree with taking the influence group. As soon as you take 3 or more skills in a group it's cheaper to take the group. As it stands, you've paid 3*3*4 = 36BP for the 3 skills while the group with one skill 'free' would have cost you 30BP.
Depending on your GM, you might want to lose dodge. I know, there has been a lot of discussion about gymnastics dodge, but you can substitute that, basically only losing the ability to dodge with vehicles.

Edge is important. I would use at least 30BP (for a total of Edge 5) for such a character to equalize your ... average skills and attributes with the luck factor.
Apart from that, I agree with something the other people here said: Either use skillsofts or get linguist for a mere 5BP if you take this many languages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It will allow you to use your rating 3 social skills at full rating when taking the language at 1.

When adding up to 500 BP, get better attributes, raise one skill to 6 or two to 5 and GEAR! Cyberware, Bioware, and / or magic will be doable, too.
Maybe raise your vehicle skills then, too. Another skill from the electronics group to consider is Data Search. It will allow you to utilize proper matrix legwork.
And if the BP get low, think about negative qualities (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There are a lot of flavorful ones for an Agent, such as records on file, SINner, etc. pp.

[DnDer]

Okay... time to respec, probably from ground up, looking at what's going to be done, since I last talked with my GM about my background and what he might need for the campaign.

Former soviet military sniper (yes, I've been reading the "Hidden Snipers" thread) promoted out of the field and into more of a deskwork spy. "Tinker, Tailor" stuff where it's basic research, interviewing, shadowing, and some light B&E, and not so much James Bond can do everything. More a dual-ist now, than a generalist. I plan on being more of the desk spy/group handler than a sniper, though, so it's a very b-role for me.

Still looking at the "Blandness" quality and now an "Addiction, Mild" quality for tranqs, left over from his sniping days. "Linguist" will probably go on there, as soon as I find which book it's in. Going to run on light bioware, as it creates the lowest "profile" for someone doing fieldwork (as a sniper or a spy), and basic cyber (datajack, as recommended). Observational skills are still going to be huge, though.

With a dual specialty, now, I'm sure my expenditures will get much easier to choose from. Keeping these things in mind, what would you guys say is NECESSARY to accomplish my dual-focus in a competent manner? (I'm thinking ~9-10 dice makes for a "competent" pool, right?)

I'm guaranteed 500 BP if I need it, or karmagen (since I have the RC on loan, which I'll read up on tonight).

[bannockburn]

Might I suggest a long weapons skill in this case? Better yet, take the firearms group at 4. An orientation system wouldn't go amiss either, as headware.
I'd take high agility as well, probably 5.

In any case, your character as he is now (with tweaked attributes), already sounds like what you're looking for, minus long arms and electronics / locksmithing skills

[DnDer]

Might I suggest a long weapons skill in this case? Better yet, take the firearms group at 4. An orientation system wouldn't go amiss either, as headware.
I'd take high agility as well, probably 5.

In any case, your character as he is now (with tweaked attributes), already sounds like what you're looking for, minus long arms and electronics / locksmithing skills

And no money for anything except a bolt-action rifle with scope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But 100 more BP will go a long way to picking up those firearms skills, edge, lockpicking and leadership, too. It'll also fetch me hopefully enough money for a good rifle with some attachments, as well as some basic bioware.

With all the recommendations for groups and specs, I was getting a little worried about having to start from scratch to get all the right points in place.

[bannockburn]

Have you tried chummer? Provided that you're running windows as OS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DnDer]

Have you tried chummer? Provided that you're running windows as OS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Mac user, for the most part. And work isn't too keen about outside programs being run on their equipment.