Hidden snipers, Am I doing this right? Options

[Lionhearted]

So I'm trying to figure out how a scenario with a hidden sniper on a roof top would work out in practice and I came up with two scenarios.

1. The sniper stays hidden
• He need to spend a complex action to be able to roll his infiltration eliminating the possibility for take aim
• the turn/pass he takes the shot the infiltration drops, the sniper can lock on and take a called shot.
Is the defender considered unaware(unable to roll surprise) if he didn't beat the infiltration previously?
or is he allowed to roll surprise normally provided he spots the now not hiding sniper?

2. Sniper not hiding, but aiming!
• The defender are able to roll perception vs the not hidden sniper to become aware (which can still be tricky with good position and ruthenium coated armor)
• Sniper may spend unlimited actions taking aim/locking on (provided the target is moving) receiving benefits up to half his longarms/sniper rifle skill.
• Sniper may not(?) Call a shot as that wouldn't break the take aim. (re-read the rules and it's explicitly stated that you can)
•Target is surprised if the sniper is undetected.
a) Surprise is resolved normally if the sniper is spotted and act upon it
b) the sniper is spotted and do not act upon it??

Edit: Added edition tag

[_Pax._]

1. The sniper stays hidden
• He need to spend a complex action to be able to roll his infiltration eliminating the possibility for take aim

Camoflage keeps a sniepr hidden even while shooting. Camoflage is handled via the Disguise skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

• the turn/pass he takes the shot the infiltration drops, the sniper can lock on and take a called shot.
Is the defender considered unaware(unable to roll surprise) if he didn't beat the infiltration previously?
or is he allowed to roll surprise normally provided he spots the now not hiding sniper?

The defender should be considered completely unaware for the very first shot, presumign his perception roll does not beat the Sniper's infiltration and/.or Disguise (Camoflage) roll(s).

Keep in mind, that a good "hidden sniper" is going to be using an integral silencer/suppressor, and probably subsonic rounds, and maybe Electronic Firing. Together, those three amount to a -9 to perception checks to detect the weapon being fired at all, as well as to perception checks to localise the firer's position.

[Tashiro]

I prefer having a sorcerer as a spotter, who can then summon a spirit to give Conceal to the sniper, thus really screwing the chance of finding him. And of course, if you have enough distance between you and the target, there's almost no chance they'll ever see you before you fire off the shot. Hell, with Conceal, even after the shot, they're extremely unlikely to spot you. Change position, and prepare another shot. They're not going to get defence - the shot'll hit them before they get any indication it's coming in.

[Lionhearted]

If I'm reading this correctly the target is always allowed to roll surprise, however they receive +3 if they have spotted the attacker (assuming the attacker acts on being spotted, if not... uh?) while the attacker receives +6 for setting an ambush.

and guys. Im not out to execute the players Wanted style. Just to spook them a bit.

[_Pax._]

If you just want to spook them, just fiat it: they don't spot the sniper, they fail the surprise check, and ... the sniper misses. One shot, then he pulls a fade.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

If I'm reading this correctly the target is always allowed to roll surprise, however they receive +3 if they have spotted the attacker (assuming the attacker acts on being spotted, if not... uh?) while the attacker receives +6 for setting an ambush.

Yes, but good luck with actually making that roll. First of all the roll should be secret so you are unlikely to spend edge. Then there are a lot of negative modifiers that all apply:
-2 Perceiver is distracted, -2 Object not in immediate vicinity, -3 Object far away, most likely -2 Interfering sight. So even before visibility modifiers you have a penalty of at least -7.

It gets even worse if the sniper is an adept with Combat Sense. [Edit]The Surprise roll, that is.[/Edit]

Even a successful Perception roll will not negate the +6 the ambusher gets and ambushers are entitled to the perception roll as well (for another +3)

I'm not sure how you want to spook the PCs, but if you want to do it on behalf of an NPC, use capsule rounds with dye. They will know that they had no chance at all to avoid the shot but no harm came to them.

[Lionhearted]

Well I'm not a fan of handwaving which is why I'm trying to get the rules down. Also it's good knowledge for when I actually want to hurt them.
The Sniper is a prime runner part of an Ares striketeam I intend to use as re-occuring rivals... The rooftop snipe is their introduction to this member of the team.
Funnily enough her street name is Fade.

I don't think a single one of them have a perception DP over 10, and she got ruthenium armor...
Sounds like I should simply resolve it as a surprise roll where the sniper got +9

I like the painting the target scenario, sounds like something someone with an superiority complex would do.
"I could kill you right now, but I won't because that's no fun"

[kzt]

If you want to do this you need a redshirt, because someone is going to die.

An Ares firewatch sniper is going to kill whoever you target if you roll it, plus get away. The sniper is covered by s F6 concealment, plus camo, plus probably silence. With probably 20 dice against no defense. Plus the sniper is either the start of a direct assault or is covered by the rest of their team, including the other snipers.

Overall, having a competent sniper as recurring foe is only good if your players really like rolling up new characters every game session and you don't mind that every move in the entire game becomes a paranoid search for the sniper. You might as well have a recurring foe whose schtick is dropping laser guided 2000lb bombs on the players houses as they sleep.

[Lionhearted]

Well they're not going to have to worry about it constantly, I intend to use the team episodically so they know when they have to worry about them.
Seem like something I have to practice extreme caution with using however. If handled fairly it should be manageable. No magical omnipresence, opportunities to engage her while she's at a disadvantage etc.
GM petting is not my thing and at the end of the day if authenticity have to make way for a good game experience. So be it, I play with my players, not against them.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Even a ganger with a sports rifle can be dangerous to lethal for a pc. But the most fearful sniper is a rigger with a few sniper-equipped chameleon blimp-drones with gunnery 6+3(Control Rig Booster Nanites).

[Lionhearted]

With PCs are we talking about the unaugmented face with 10 dice to his DR pool or Sir Soakalot the street sam with 25+ dice?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Against a ganger with an 8P AP-1 Sports rifle more like the former.
Against a 2 Initiation cybered Warriors Way Adept Sniper, with 24 Dice (before targeting) who ignores up to -12 on penalties (Adept Centering+Centering Focus R5+Heightended Concentration) and a Barret 121 with AP Flechette Ammo (War!), even Sir Soakalot is dead.

[Lionhearted]

Whelp! That's way beyond the recommended for a superior foe of their team. What's heightened concentration? I can't find it in Core or SM.

[Umidori]

Heightened Concentration is broken, is what it is. It's in the Digital Grimoire, p. 18, and costs 1 power point.

The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and may be be combined with the Adept Centering metamagic.

The way it works is you use a Complex Action to choose what negative modifier you'd like to cancel out. You only ever need to use another Complex Action if you want to change which specific modifier you're canceling. It works on pretty much anything, even recoil.

~Umi

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Its in Digital Grimoire, or in the German SM. I just noticed i can easily get a Technomancer Command Rigger to a Gunnery Dicepool of 29+Hit on a Sensor Targeting Roll, without a diagnostics Roll from a Machine Sprite - chargen legal.

[Lionhearted]

Sometimes I'm very happy my group don't read these forums

[Dakka Dakka]

Well I'm not a fan of handwaving which is why I'm trying to get the rules down. Also it's good knowledge for when I actually want to hurt them.
The Sniper is a prime runner part of an Ares striketeam I intend to use as re-occuring rivals... The rooftop snipe is their introduction to this member of the team.
Funnily enough her street name is Fade.

Why does he have a Street Name? Is he Moonlighting? Does the sniper even have a reason to introduce himself that way? The purpose of a sniper is to take out high value/dangerous targets at long range without being seen.

I like the painting the target scenario, sounds like something someone with an superiority complex would do.
"I could kill you right now, but I won't because that's no fun"

I'm not sure, that kind of person would be recruited by Ares.

If the PCs are aware that a sniper could be in the area, after such an introduction, they will probably either refuse the job or the gameplay will be very much bogged down as they will probably check for possible lines of fire, remain indoors, where possible etc.

[Dakka Dakka]

Sorry for the double post. Delete please.

[Lionhearted]

Why does he have a Street Name? Is he Moonlighting?

Former Tir ghost not even her team mates know her real name.

I'm not sure, that kind of person would be recruited by Ares.

If your good enough at something you can afford a few quirks.

If the PCs are aware that a sniper could be in the area, after such an introduction, they will probably either refuse the job or the gameplay will be very much bogged down as they will probably check for possible lines of fire, remain indoors, where possible etc.

They're not really in a position to. Currently they're full-time employees for an Evo subsidiary, the running is a side assignment they got elected to participate in. Sure they may jump ship eventually, but as is they take the assignments they're given.
This particular run is a race to the finish for a common objective, the Ares team is not so much out to get them as they are to get the objective.
It makes sense for the sniper (in her point of view) to show these up-starts that they're outclassed and should know their place.

Yes I'm going lightly with the mirror shades and shooting for a more cinematic experience.
Partly because I don't want to get bogged down fail-safe scenarios, partly because real mirrorshade paranoia is quite overwhelming for someone new to the universe.

Also, I know it's restrictive but the players are brand new to the game and benefit from having some structure.

[Dakka Dakka]

If your good enough at something you can afford a few quirks.

Doing something as unprofessional as announcing your presence and skill level and possibly equipment does not count as "good enough" in my book. It it's the first time that happened I just have to ask, why now?

They're not really in a position to. Currently they're full-time employees for an Evo subsidiary, the running is a side assignment they got elected to participate in. Sure they may jump ship eventually, but as is they take the assignments they're given.

Then somebody screwed up in giving them those assignments. As far as I can tell, there is nothing the team can do against a sniper and even less if he is part of a team of special forces.

This particular run is a race to the finish for a common objective, the Ares team is not so much out to get them as they are to get the objective.
It makes sense for the sniper (in her point of view) to show these up-starts that they're outclassed and should know their place.

It would be a lot more professional to either avoid the team altogether or take them all out (possibly non-lethally).

I know it's restrictive but the players are brand new to the game and benefit from having some structure.

While structure may help, I think you are using a structure that neither fits the players nor the characters. If you use a full-fledged Ares Strike Team (where at least one member is a former Tir Ghost) against a group of starting characters in a more or less straight forward confrontation, there can be only one outcome. The strike team wins, the only question is how many of the PCs will remain alive.

Don't forget that while a Strike team will only be a handful of guys, they will have a lot of infrastructure, like drones in the sky, access to all sorts of databases, better equipment etc. Do your PCs have similar resources?

[kzt]

Let me stop being a smartass and simply urge you, in the strongest possible terms, to not go there. Snipers are completely horrible recurring foes. They are either a joke or they kill player after player. For new players it's even worse.

Even a joke gang banger at 600 yards with a sporting rifle will eventually get lucky and it stops being a joke. At which point your game STOPS. When your players spend 30 minutes of real time trying to arguing with you about how to get into their house or to a meet without getting shot the fun is over.

[Lionhearted]

At the end of the day if authenticity have to make way for a good game experience. So be it, I play with my players, not against them.

I'd love to discuss my GMing philosophy with you, but please stop telling me how I can or cannot run my game?
I've been involved in several groups playing and leading for over ten years, I know the pitfalls and I've learned how to craft an enjoyable experience that works for my group.

[Dakka Dakka]

Let me stop being a smartass and simply urge you, in the strongest possible terms, to not go there. Snipers are completely horrible recurring foes. They are either a joke or they kill player after player.

You meant characters, I hope.

Even a joke gang banger at 600 yards with a sporting rifle will eventually get lucky and it stops being a joke. At which point your game STOPS. When your players spend 30 minutes of real time trying to arguing with you about how to get into their house or to a meet without getting shot the fun is over.

+1

Unless your PCs have seriously high soak pools sniper situations are very binary. Either the sniper misses or a character is dead. With a sports rifle the minimum damage will be (7_base+4_{called shot}+1_{net hit})P and AP -1. Real sniper rifles with better ammunition are worse.

[Lionhearted]

An average ganger (as listed in core) is not even going to be able to make a called shot.
3 agi, -1 defaulting, +0 take aim (it's limited to half skill rating round down), +1/2 (smart link or laser sight) -6 range (he can't take aim!) He can't even make a long shot test with that.

[bannockburn]

For what it's worth: If you want to scare them, load the rifle with Hollow Point rounds.
It will allow for a higher soak pool while making sense for in-world reasons.
A sniper may go for unarmored locations, but there's no location system in place (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)