Mages running rampant, How do you keep the public safe from a mage? Options

[Tiberius]

Almost everyone in my group is new, or at least not experienced with shadowrun, this includes me. I'm running the game so I've had to learn a lot quickly.
We haven't gotten into matrix and hacking stuff yet. We're finally getting magic worked out, and are starting to get into the astral realm.

My biggest problem is the mage.

Killing the mage isn't a problem. it almost happened the second game when they failed a con check. yakuza body guard would've one shotted her if she didn't burn edge.
The problem is spells like mob control, and alter memory. She can shut down many encounters I throw at them by simply altering the memory of someone, or controlling them.

The advice I've gotten mostly so far is, have mages in the encounters, and to have spirits guarding them.
Mages just aren't common enough to have on hand all the time
and spirit binding is expensive to most people. I finally found the rules on the year long service stuff. but that raises the question of how much karma npc's have.

I want a mundane solution. "magic must fight magic" won't always be viable
And "geek the mage" isn't really a solution. killing the mage in combat is a simple matter. Wired up sammy shoots the one guy without a gun, and not looking to do kung fu.
I'm looking to keep the mage from running rough shod over everyone who can't afford a spirit. other wise my only recourse is to embrace "geek the mage" and have the mages drop like flies.

[kzt]

Simple principle is that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Have the players face opponents that use all the magic optimally. Is it fun when THEY are all mind controlled and shoot themselves in the head? See how they like being possessed and then used as invulnerable killing machines to tear apart their friends. Then talk about how to resolve this.

I suggest banning the mind manipulation spells, by everyone PC and NPC. They are "I win" buttons for whoever uses them. Possession type mages are also a real problem if used effectively.

[S.N.D.]

Alter Memory isn't an instant spell, so it takes some time to cast. Time means little outside of combat, except that spells cast at non-trivial force levels become increasingly obvious. That is, the TN to notice a spell is six minus Force. If players are puppeteering obstacles off to out of the way places and then scrubbing them, then there's not much you can do about it. They're playing smart. Tech defenses won't care though.

So, your answer is robots.

[_Pax._]

I want a mundane solution. "magic must fight magic" won't always be viable

Drones. Drones can't be mind-controlled, less the rigger controlling it is in LOS.

Better yet, if yoru mage is using spells that let them control someone's ACTIONS ... well, that's not controllign their THOGUHTS. So even fi they catch that rigger in LOS, and makehim ACT how they like ... if that rigger has an implanted commlink? His drones can still shoot at the PCs.

And "geek the mage" isn't really a solution.

It is if you use gel rounds. That way, he wakes up afterwards (Also, accumulating stun on a Mage means they get a wee bit more conservative with their spells, due to Drain.)

[All4BigGuns]

Honestly, there's not any real problem that I can see. The guy is playing his mage smart and it's keeping his team alive. That's what he should be doing.

If you play things smart, then things will seem easy. If you don't, then things will be "oh my God, what have I gotten into".

[SIN]

Also, don't forget that your mage is leaving behind an astral signature when he casts spells. If he's dicking with people who would qualify as innocent, it's perfectly plausible that his signature would be found by a police mage and he would become a wanted criminal.

Remember, the whole point is to have fun and if you think the players are getting it too easy to make it dramatic and challenging, then up the challenge. If they're having a good time being able to waltz through certain encounters because of a few well placed spells, does it really matter?

[bannockburn]

Yes, magic is powerful.
Utility spells like mind control and alter memories are even more powerful than stupid combat spells.

But it is not the be all and end all of everything.

Still, a few caveats apply, that have in part already been mentioned:

• Permanent spells like Alter Memories need to be sustained for twice the drain value in combat turns before their effects work. That is at least 3 combat turns with even a force 2 spell there.
• Spellcasting can be seen. 6 minus force hits are required. To influence someone usefully, you need a lot of net hits, which in turn means high force is usually necessary.
• In case of sustained control spells, victims roll willpower (+applicable counterspelling) every (Force) combat turns to resist. Hits reduce net hits and may break the control. Additional rolls are sometimes allowed, e.g. with Alter Memories or Influence.
• Watchers are cheap alternatives to full-fledged spirits or a permanent astral patrol. The issuing mage may only get into action if the watcher reports something.
• Wards break sustained spells, if the victim walks through them. Wards are also comparatively cheap.
• Spells leave an astral signature for (Force) hours until AFTER the effect ends. Signatures can be assensed where the spell was cast and on the victim and need 3 successes on an assensing test. This can be used for investigations into the matter.

With this in mind, a smart mage is still a terribly useful asset to a team.
However, I've found, that mageophobia is a thing. A lot of my player's characters and some of mine show this behaviour. Usually they are intelligent enough to recognize the force multiplier a mage brings to the table, but that does not mean that there are no roleplaying obstacles (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit:
Also, smart mages won't look like mages. They may have a submachine gun and armored clothing and look like everyone else until the mana starts flying. So geeking the mage may be complicated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
On the other hand, if your mage regularly uses mob control, remember that this is a very flashy thing to do when it's in public. Investigations will start, and to reign it in a bit, you can mention that the news networks talk about that 'mage running rampant' and KE has started to look into it and is on a hot lead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

Drones. Drones can't be mind-controlled, less the rigger controlling it is in LOS.

Better yet, if yoru mage is using spells that let them control someone's ACTIONS ... well, that's not controllign their THOGUHTS. So even fi they catch that rigger in LOS, and makehim ACT how they like ... if that rigger has an implanted commlink? His drones can still shoot at the PCs.

This deserves a repeat. Drones cannot be mind controlled. They can replace flesh and blood guards in many places, and they can be almost as smart. In fact, they can be harder to outsmart.

[Dolanar]

in fact in a more recent book there is a Drone that is specifically aimed & marketed as being a drone for security purposes to help relieve the flesh & blood troops somewhat.

[toturi]

Mages are good.

But a mystic adept + e-animal. Now there is something to work around.

[thorya]

I will third that drones are good at avoiding manipulation.

Also, keep in mind that cybereyes and anything else that can record (commlink showing where they've been, etc.) may give evidence to the individual that their memories have been tampered with. This means that they may immediately be presented with evidence and given another chance to roll their willpower to reduce hits on the manipulation spell. We use a houserule that all mental manipulation spells work like alter memory, if you're confronted with direct evidence you're being controlled you get another Willpower roll.

And since you're using street magic pg. 126, take a look at the tools of the trade section and if you're using aresenal pg. 64. There are many tools probably being intelligently applied in the SR world to handle mages. Glomoss can be used in sensors to detect spirits (likely to be your next problem with the mage) or spell use. It also can provide immediate notification that a subject may be being controlled or have had their memory altered. A corp could have employees wearing glomoss sensors, that trigger an automated response when they may have had a spellcast on them that requires them to answer a series of security questions, failure to do so triggers a response and doing so takes enough time that they are delayed from doing anything long enough that they get another test against the control (unless it's at very high force). Additionally, a grid of these sensors can be used to pinpoint a mage as soon as they cast a spell, based upon which ones are triggered so identification of the mage becomes much easier. The group could also encounter haven lilies placed inconspicuously as corporate landscaping or office greenery. Holo projectors can also be a lot of fun. If that drone would be to intimidating to employees and visitors, just holoproject the image of a friendly metahuman guard in its place.

Other ideas I cooked up that are not in the books, but use commonly available tech to implement-

One way Bulletproof one way mirrors- Long rooms parallel to a hallways that passes through visual inspection booths and scanners. The guards are behind special polymer mirrors that allow them to see or fire into the hallway if necessary, but do not allow people in the hallway to see them (preventing spell casting and incurring a -6 blind fire penalty) and places an Armor 8, Structure 9 barrier between themselves and the opposition. Additionally, the barrier is one way, providing only 1 armor in the opposite direction (i.e. to the runners). Thus, guards can fire back easily if they need to. Guards communicate with people in the hallway using a speaker system and the doors are physically locked from the inside so no picking or hacking.

Conducting Fog barrier- A small mister creates a fog of highly conducting microdroplets. Visual and ultra-sonic analyzers are used to assess anything moving through the fog and an individual must be broadcasting a security code or have previously entered one at a terminal that disarms the fog for a brief period. Sensor ratings for these systems vary from 4-6 and they include a Spatial Recognizer and audio enchancers. Depending upon the lighting conditions, ambient noise, and quality of the system, these sensors have a bonus of +2-6 to detect invisible individuals or concealed creatures because of the fog interacting with the individuals in unusual ways. If a threat is identified in the fog, a current is passed through the fog delivering 12S electrical damage to anyone inside.

Awakened Detection Test- This utilizes a special set of flash cards along with a Deepweed smoke machine. A mundane will only be able to one set of words displayed on the cards, while an awakened character exposed to the Deepweed smoke will astrally perceive only be able to read the other set of words.

Deepweed Air Filters- Both a security measure and an employee loyalty program. These filters constantly run the buildings incoming air supply through a bed of awakened kelp, such that there is a constant low background dose of Deepweed in the air supply. A period of exposure of 10 minutes is required before the effects set-in. For most mundanes this just gives the building a feeling of a relaxing vibe and makes it seem more welcoming. For awakened characters, they begin to astrally perceive. A waiting period is required before being allowed into the highest security branches of the building and guards are trained to look for unannounced magical users suddenly acting strangely. It is also not uncommon to couple this with additional countermeasures once a mage is identified. The mage suffers the normal -2 modifier after being in these facilities for 10 minutes.
Employees in such a facility may suffer withdraw if away from work for long periods of time and are often not informed about their exposure.

[Lionhearted]

Awakened Detection Test- This utilizes a special set of flash cards along with a Deepweed smoke machine. A mundane will only be able to one set of words displayed on the cards, while an awakened character exposed to the Deepweed smoke will astrally perceive only be able to read the other set of words.

Wouldn't need anything astral there, a perceiving character would only be able to see the astral shadow of the cards. Thus completely unable to read them.
That's a lot of nice ideas, think i'll put some of them in my pocket.

A very easy way to counter mages is to have the goons be magic canny. If there's a doorguard he got backup that's not in LoS, if someone trying to sneak in invisible to a place set up motion sensors connected to a camera, if both don't get a reading it triggers a paint shower (invisibility only blocks sight), Wards are very affordable!
Knowing the restrictions of a mage allows you to counter them with mundane means.

[Tashiro]

I suggest banning the mind manipulation spells, by everyone PC and NPC. They are "I win" buttons for whoever uses them. Possession type mages are also a real problem if used effectively.

I've had a possession mage in my group - he'd send it to possess one of the enemies, and turn the enemy against his own team. It was a little frustrating the first time it happened, but then I decided to let it slide rather than get worked up. If it is a viable tactic, and 'legit' by the rules, I don't want it to stress me. I don't feel it's right to punish the players for playing smart (even if I do get annoyed at them using Concealment all the time). There's always going to be some sort of "I win" button or combination.

Fortunately, my players haven't used mind manipulation spells, but I've seen this kind of thing in other RPGs - and as long as it's done carefully, I don't see any reason to prevent it either.

[Lionhearted]

I was going to say that possession only works on willing or helpless targets. But apparently that is only true for preparing vessels and only gives a negative modifier. You could houserule that trying to possess an unwilling subject gives an equal penalty to trying to enchant them (minus the subjects total magic or essence rating).
Forcex2 vs Will+Int gets really ridiculous once you start summoning moderately powerful spirits.

[Tiberius]

a lot of this sounds very useful. Especially the ones who've informed me that alter memory will take some time to cast, I didn't know that.
Though the main thing I'm worried about is the noncomabt encounters. For example say the group needs to get an item from an npc. to do so they need to buy it from them, convince them, do a job for them, something. Then the mage just alters their memory so they think the group had done a job for them already. I want to keep that from happening. But Alot of you have mentioned that their just playing smart. I can kind of see that, but it doesn't feel like playing smart as much as just having an easy button on hand. not much thought goes into figuring out what to do when you can just brainwash an NPC.

The problem bugs me because outside of the runner group and the NPC's who can afford a guard spirit (which still begs the question, do npc's have infinite karma for the year long binding?), what protects everday people from being brainwashed by mages?

It also bugs me because the first act any player did in this game was to mob control a pair of zen heads, and have they guy snap his girlfriends neck. Which for me set the tone of this game

as for the mage getting int trouble with the law, that's something I'm already doing

The mage left her astral signature all over the place the first night of the campaign. At a stuffer shack, and a puppet parlor, on a light pole she accidentally hit with a force 7 lightning. SFPD got her astral signature, later used the flexible signature metamagic to reproduce it and show it to other police mages. And then recently she alter memoried a woman after striking said woman's car with lightning, twice. this was caught on camera. Getting access to the tapes might take lonestar a bit of time, so unless the hacker she intimidated into helping gets to those tapes in time her face will show up.
The hacker she intimidated and who is in fear of her, and may find another solution to his mage problem. Getting the tapes and sending them to the police, and then being put in protective custody so the mage, or his bookey don't kill him.

Next game she might have to deal with SWAT, Yakuza, a secret assasin guild who takes out mages, the Mayor (who is a dragon), a gang, and a massive AI. half want her dead, two want to control her, and one wants her arrested. the other players may also get her for being a liability.

She's taken to having watchers erase her astral signature, but now I'm wondering, is that a thing watchers can do?

and again, thanks for all the advice so far.

[Falconer]

I've had a possession mage in my group - he'd send it to possess one of the enemies, and turn the enemy against his own team. It was a little frustrating the first time it happened, but then I decided to let it slide rather than get worked up. If it is a viable tactic, and 'legit' by the rules, I don't want it to stress me. I don't feel it's right to punish the players for playing smart (even if I do get annoyed at them using Concealment all the time). There's always going to be some sort of "I win" button or combination.

Tashiro the reason this is a huge problem is that mundanes have no defense against it.

In prior editions ALL methods of attacking mundane beings on the physical from astral attackers they don't even know are there have been removed (dual natured magical types have ways to defend themselves... mundanes do not). Then along comes possession and drops this one in. It's stupidly efffective... as the possessed guard is better than a materialized spirit.... (lets say the guard has 3's in all his physical stats... show me a materialized spirit which has +3's in all it's physical attribute mods.... AND is wearing the guards equipment like armor, etc.). So you've directly taken one goon out just by possessing him... and the others are soon to follow because ItNW + normal worn armor + enhanced body + enhanced reaction & unarmed combat scores mean the eliminated possessed guard is probably not going to get hurt at all by the other guards while taking them out.

[bannockburn]

So, there you have it. Your mage already gets a reputation about being someone who screws with people's mind. Enterprising NPCs WILL have magical backup at the meet if they know this and NPCs have as much karma or paid for such services as the GM requires (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the neck-snapping story: a mind control that goes totally against basic instinct or what a person would do, would warrant additional resistance rolls, IMO.

To answer your question about who protects everyday people:
The mages themselves.
Most trained mages will have had a required subject at their university, called 'thaumaturgical ethics' or somesuch. There, they get drilled in what's wrong and what's right (hint: astral voyeurs are creeps (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). Additionally, the formulae for mind-control spells are (or were, at least in SR3, can't check right now for SR4) highly controlled. Sure, a mage can still have the spell, but it's illegal and will be prosecuted if it comes out that he uses it. Most mages won't even know those kinds of spells at all, be it from them not being in their specialty, not being of interest for them or simply frowning upon their use.
This is, of course, an ingame explanation and may require a discussion between you and your player, if you want to explain your point of view on the matter. IMO, you should discuss the topic anyways and maybe you'll find some convincing arguments here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And no, watchers can't erase an astral signature.

[Cain]

The problem bugs me because outside of the runner group and the NPC's who can afford a guard spirit (which still begs the question, do npc's have infinite karma for the year long binding?), what protects everday people from being brainwashed by mages?

The rarity of magic. Only 1% of the population has any magic at all, and of those, only a few are powerful spellcasters who know mind magic.

Look at it this way. Doctors represent about 1% of the population. That means you may see doctors on TV, may know some professionally, and maybe even know one or two personally. But that doesn't mean you're likely to get gutted by a surgeon in a dark alley. We don't need special protection from surgeons.

It also bugs me because the first act any player did in this game was to mob control a pair of zen heads, and have they guy snap his girlfriends neck. Which for me set the tone of this game

Actions like that give the target a free roll to resist the control. That, plus the normal resistance rolls, mean that the mind control spell with be broken in short order.

She's taken to having watchers erase her astral signature, but now I'm wondering, is that a thing watchers can do?

I don't see why not, but remember, watchers are dumb. They only get 1 die to comprehend an order, and if they botch, hilarity can ensue. Also remember that the watcher has the summoner's astral signature as well.

[Falconer]

Yeah... OP...

Mindraping is the kind of thing which gets you a very bad reputation on the streets in Shadowrun. The biggest problem with alter memory is you need to do it then give it time to become permanent... the same goes for the influence spell. The control spells are immediate... but lack permanent effect.


Read the Street Legends entry on Haze I think it was. It has a lot of comments form the shadowtalkers about do you like him because you like him... or because he's screwed with your mind.

[Tashiro]

Tashiro the reason this is a huge problem is that mundanes have no defense against it.

I'm fully aware of this. Mundanes have crap-all for resistance against a number of magical attacks and abilities. A number of them have the mundane roll a single attribute to resist, against the spirit or critter's attribute+magic. This sets a huge disadvantage for the mundanes, but it also means that the PCs run into similar trouble (Fear always seems to be a good one).

[bannockburn]

I don't see why not, but remember, watchers are dumb. They only get 1 die to comprehend an order, and if they botch, hilarity can ensue. Also remember that the watcher has the summoner's astral signature as well.

Because it requires a magician, using astral perception.
Funny thing though, how is a magician defined? As someone possessing the magician quality? In this case, mystic adepts were unable to erase their own astral signatures. Hmmmmm. ^^

[All4BigGuns]

Tashiro the reason this is a huge problem is that mundanes have no defense against it.

And honestly, mundanes shouldn't have much defense against magic (they still have some--their Willpower). Number one, it gives a reason to have a mage on the team, and number two, again, magic should be that strange unknowable force to mundanes.

[thorya]

Mindraping is the kind of thing which gets you a very bad reputation on the streets in Shadowrun. The biggest problem with alter memory is you need to do it then give it time to become permanent... the same goes for the influence spell. The control spells are immediate... but lack permanent effect.

Unless you want to go hard core puppet master and dose people with Ripper, and hit them with a decrease attribute spell (willpower). And use a sustaining foci to maintain it so that their willpower never recovers and you have them on a long term basis. Though that puts you solidly in the bad guy, super creep range.

[thorya]

The thing to remember is that NPC's don't have a defense against most things that runners can bring against them, it's the corps and other organizations that can deal with them. How many people in the barrens can stand-up to a street sam in a fight? Or can protect their crappy stuffer shack blue light special commlink from a hacker? Or keep their car from being jacked? Really, most npc's are like everyday people in modern countries. If someone shows up with something seriously threatening, they're going to call the police, etc. They'll take counter measures, but ultimately they rely on others and the fact that most mages aren't crazed sociopaths that mind control people to kill each other. And the ones that are are treated like serial killers today. Sure they get away with it several times (in some cases a lot of times), but eventually almost all of them fuck up or leave evidence or pick the wrong target and then they get screwed. Then they spend the rest of their life in a magemask and are caged like an animal.

[Lionhearted]

It also bugs me because the first act any player did in this game was to mob control a pair of zen heads, and have they guy snap his girlfriends neck. Which for me set the tone of this game

as for the mage getting in trouble with the law, that's something I'm already doing

The mage left her astral signature all over the place the first night of the campaign. At a stuffer shack, and a puppet parlor, on a light pole she accidentally hit with a force 7 lightning. SFPD got her astral signature, later used the flexible signature metamagic to reproduce it and show it to other police mages. And then recently she alter memoried a woman after striking said woman's car with lightning, twice. this was caught on camera. Getting access to the tapes might take lonestar a bit of time, so unless the hacker she intimidated into helping gets to those tapes in time her face will show up.
The hacker she intimidated and who is in fear of her, and may find another solution to his mage problem. Getting the tapes and sending them to the police, and then being put in protective custody so the mage, or his bookey don't kill him.

Next game she might have to deal with SWAT, Yakuza, a secret assasin guild who takes out mages, the Mayor (who is a dragon), a gang, and a massive AI. half want her dead, two want to control her, and one wants her arrested. the other players may also get her for being a liability.

How is this guy still alive?
You have more then enough reason to kick in his door no explanation given and bring down the thunder for all the mayhem he's causing!

How do you protect the public against an out of control mage?
Consequences, these actions don't exist in a vacuum and this fellow have caused enough ruckus. They got him on film! they got plenty of eye witnesses, they got his prints!
This guy needs the world come crashing down on him.