Mages running rampant, How do you keep the public safe from a mage? Options

[Falconer]

Traceless walk if they're pressure sensors. (some of them use vibrabomb type sensors to detect footsteps and ground vibrations). But why not just levitate if you're already tossing spells. Oh wait that's a manipulation....

Lets take this another direction as well.... forget physical mask... that's only a LIMITED version of trid phantasm. Why not just go completely holodeck on them. (though I disagree with the illusion of the backside of the door not opening... you have no idea what it looks like so how would you craft the illusion? And if you get the colors and signage or doorknob style on the backside of the door people won't notice?).


All the loophole arguments devolve into one point which I think falls apart that illusions can create force and push back at things. I don't buy it. It's an illusion what does it mean to stimulate all 5 senses...
Sight; 'nuf said
Sound; 'nuf said
Taste/Smell; pretty much the same thing... boy this soy tastes different today far better than the normal soy.
Touch: it can simulate the illusion of heat/cold (hot potato anyone)... but I don't think it actually produces any 'tactile' senses... because it's an illusion not a manipulation.

Remember this whole thing started because someone complained that the spell allowed people do things that are silly but because others insist on the most expansive reading of all other senses possible... instead of all other senses consistent with the limitations of an illusion.

[DnDer]

I probably would find something more kosher for my blackhole urges (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

How dirty was that supposed to sound? Maybe I haven't had enough sleep... but it sounds really dirty.

[Lionhearted]

Not at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Black holes is one of my favourite astronomical phenomenon, I find them fascinating.

[Neraph]

But you can only mask to the same basic size and shape (it is an ILLUSION not a MANIPULATION). Your weight is a function of your size and shape (and composition), so you cannot alter how much "Pressure" you exert on that pressure plate. so no, you cannot walk across a field full of landmines and ignore them. That is what Traceless Walk is for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, but you give the ILLUSION of weight, texture, and many other things. You can have a naked guy with Physical Mask appear to be fully clothed, and anyone who touched his shoulder would feel his shirt. What they're talking about is simply the extension of this. In the earlier case of the minicar Masked into a bus, people would believe in the illusion of touching a bus and interacting with it - they would not allow themselves to "go through" the bus. You would give the fingerprint scanner the illusion of the correct prints, making it respond accordingly, but leaving your real prints behind on the touchscreen. And so forth.

Not at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Black holes is one of my favourite astronomical phenomenon, I find them fascinating.

As do I, but it's important to remember that they're still theoretical, in spite of the circumstantial evidence to support them (last I heard, that is). Not saying they don't have very good circumstantial evidence, just that it's not proven yet. For the sake of objectivity I think we should keep that in mind.

[FuelDrop]

So if you make an illusion of a gun, and shoot someone with its illusion bullets, do they still take real damage?

[The Random NPC]

Nope, but they might act appropriately if they fail to see through it.
EDIT: Note, I don't think they should be forced to act that way. Instead they should get a new save, with a massive bonus since they obviously didn't take any damage. The bonus could be mitigated by making it look like the the bullet didn't penetrate the armor or something.

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

Note, I don't think they should be forced to act that way. Instead they should get a new save, with a massive bonus since they obviously didn't take any damage.

I agree, but what happens if they fail said check?

[All4BigGuns]

So if you make an illusion of a gun, and shoot someone with its illusion bullets, do they still take real damage?

That the same as shooting them with mind bullets? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

That's telekinesis, Kyle.

[Tashiro]

So if you make an illusion of a gun, and shoot someone with its illusion bullets, do they still take real damage?

And that's the crux, isn't it?
I would go this way: illusions can target the senses. This means you can make an illusion which can fool sight and hearing (obviously), but also taste, smell, and touch.
You can make normal illusions, which people can recognize as 'false', and you can make realistic illusions, which can fool the senses completely.

So, sight and sound is obvious and easy, but what about other senses? I figure 'smell' and 'taste' would be easy as well. Something 'smells' like food, but you can't place what it is unless it is realistic. You could make someone taste something and they might be able to identify it if it isn't realistic as 'something', but you'd need realistic to get all the flavours and details correct.

Touch is the tricky one. I figure, you could make a sensation under normal circumstances - make it feel like 'pressure' or 'resistance'. So, a full-sensation, crude, illusionary person shakes someone's hand. He would feel 'pressure' on his hand, though it wouldn't feel a person's hand. Making a person see his hand burning, he might feel 'something' on his hand, and react with alarm if it was crude.

But when you get into realistic illusions, things become fun. You could give an object the illusion of weight. The person would 'feel' the resistance, and would strain to pick up the object. However, regardless of how 'heavy' you make the object feel, and no matter how much he'd think he'd need to strain to lift it, it would still weigh how much it actually weighs. Much of the strain would be self-inflicted. You could make someone's hand appear to burn, and he'd feel the pain of having his flesh burn - but it wouldn't do anything, really.

The way I see it is that it would register as touch / impact / force, but actually apply no kinetic energy. So if you whack someone in the head with an illusionary baseball bat, they'd flinch - and perhaps flinch violently, but there'd be no actual damage, and no kinetic force. They'd react to the sensation. In a way it would be similar to AR simsense. Someone gets shot in the game, and it feels like they were really shot - but there's no kinetic force behind it - the target's own muscle spasms and reactions would be what sends them sprawling from the 'shot'.

Now, the fun part is - if you feel an object, and it 'feels' heavy, you may trick yourself into thinking it's too heavy to move. Your muscles would lock and tense against the illusionary weight, but until you actually make the attempt, you won't know whether or not you can lift it. If you go to an illusionary door and put your hand on it, you'd feel the 'resistance', and the grain of the wood and such, but unless you push against the door, you won't know it isn't there. Mind, if someone bumps you against it, you'll feel the 'resistance', even as you pass right through it without any problems.

-- you know, considering this -- I can easily see illusionary spells which inflict stun damage, simply from shock and trauma. If you make someone feel like they're burning, or crawling with spiders, and hit the 'realistic' button, you're going to do horrible, psychological harm to the target -- to the point where they may actually freak and pass out.

[Falconer]

And that's where I disagree with you and others Tashiro.... the sense of touch on an illusion has always classically been limited to merely creating the sensation of heat or cold as appropriate. Illusions have no matter and have never exerted any kind of force. As soon as you step over that line you're into manipulations and no longer casting illusions.


You want to make something appear heavier than it is... it's called levitate... and push down or up on the object making it appear heavier or lighter. You want to manipulate an object or shake hands at a distance... it's called "Magic fingers". And if people were talking about casting both the illusion and magic fingers to pull off some limited aspects of this such as shaking a hand or having their illusion manipulate real world objects... more power to them.

As soon as you allow illusions to exert any kind of force you open a huge can of worms.

[The Random NPC]

I agree, but what happens if they fail said check?

Then they act as appropriate for someone who was just shot, maybe justifying the lack of blood as their armor containing it.

As soon as you allow illusions to exert any kind of force you open a huge can of worms.

Agreed, they exert no force, just the feeling of it.

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

Then they act as appropriate for someone who was just shot, maybe justifying the lack of blood as their armor containing it.

What's appropriate for someone who was just shot? Passing Out? Dying? Fear and shock could make those a realistic possibility. How do you decide which? Some sort of test for heart conditions maybe?

Not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely interested in how people would handle the Illusion of Death. Tashiro's post has got me thing this seems like something a player might legitimately try, or at the very least throwing an NPC who disables his victims with Illusions at some players. Or is this heading back into control manipulations do you think?

[The Random NPC]

What's appropriate for someone who was just shot? Passing Out? Dying? Fear and shock could make those a realistic possibility. How do you decide which? Some sort of test for heart conditions maybe?

Not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely interested in how people would handle the Illusion of Death. Tashiro's post has got me thing this seems like something a player might legitimately try, or at the very least throwing an NPC who disables his victims with Illusions at some players. Or is this heading back into control manipulations do you think?

For the most part, they flinch and act injured (if the victim doesn't change actions due to injuries then that was a poor choice of spells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). Although, if I was GMing, one of my players knew it was an Illusionist, and they decide to ignore the injury because it is "obviously" an illusion, then more power to them. After their boxes are full, I would let them know that at least 30% of the "illusions" were real, more if the Illusionist realized they were ignoring the "illusions".

[ShadowDragon8685]

That's telekinesis, Kyle.

Thank you, now I'm listening to Tenacious D at 7:40 AM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

What's appropriate for someone who was just shot? Passing Out? Dying? Fear and shock could make those a realistic possibility. How do you decide which? Some sort of test for heart conditions maybe?

Not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely interested in how people would handle the Illusion of Death. Tashiro's post has got me thing this seems like something a player might legitimately try, or at the very least throwing an NPC who disables his victims with Illusions at some players. Or is this heading back into control manipulations do you think?

Just use the "Agony" Spell for that.

[Sage2000]

I see.
That didn't happen in my game. Mainly cause I just now learned of it.
for info on how my San fran is, go check the "ch-ch-ch-changes" topic about how people's games diverge from the setting/metaplot.

I think next game before committing to the Swat Raiding, I'll tell the player straight what's going on, and give him a chance to get out of it.

I don't think all this would frustrate me so much if it wasn't for the whole attempted neck snapping incident at the very start of the game. that really ticked me off.
Going by some of what's been said it sounds like this one mage is just an exception. So its just bad luck that the first mage in my first shadowrun game is a sociopath.

Tiberius,

First and foremost I would like to congratulate you on your mature postures, regarding your game, campaign and characters. I particulary enjoyed how you questioned the "shoot the mage" and "neutralize the mage" solutions. I just hate when some fellows GM/DMs alter an entire Universe so the character become less effective - its poor campaign design in my opinion.

As far as I could underestand you have 2 issues: the sociopath itself and the fact that the character is a mage. For both it's interesting that you openly talk about it with the player(s). Let it out of your chest, its helpfull.

For the sociopathic issue, I think its much more campaign related: its about the player and DM/GM expectations, and it all comes down to the moral context. You seem to be a guy that its bothered by sociopathic behavior - that's GOOD. In my opinion most Shadowrun Campaigns I have heard about (actually most RPGs campaigns in general) lack moral guidelines. The Shadowrun books are not helpfull in this sense, as they portray the runners as badasses and with weird street honor codes that make no sense most of the time. Problem is: if you game was a movie, what kind of movie would be? If you are happy with a movie about a bunch of badasses that worry only about the next month rent, prostitutes, drugs and the next badass upgrade (cyber, spell, whatever), well the rules will solve all issues. Now, if you prefer an action movie about heroes or anti-heroes that care about something, well... it all changes, and the game become much more complex, and much more interesting. Its a decicion about the campaign that should be openly discussed with the players, becuse somethimes we DM/GMs wants something, and the players wants another...

Now for the mage issues. I strongly recommend that you and your players take a deep look at those rules. For your description I can imagine that something is wrong with 2 aspects of the magic rules: the chance to notice spells and the drain. For the first one we have to take a look on "how obvious is spellcasting", there are rules there, very interesting ones; that makes very complicated to cast those spells during social interactions, its not forbidden, just tricky enough that it won't work everytime. And if the mage decides to cast, say, at force 1, it limits the hits he can have (not net hits). For the second part, strike me as odd that your mage can use drain-heavy spells enough to compromise your encounters, without sacrificing her. look, the mages/shamans have this peculiarity: they exaust or even hurt themselves to get the most dificult jobs done, so maybe you and your friends are overlooking something about the drain rules.

Again I congratulate you, as you are resisting the temptation of just hammering down the mage. In my opinion, if someone else was a sociopath (say a street samurai), and he was exploding houses with people inside, breaking people necks for no good reason, torturing people and paracritters all the time to get his information; i believe the authorities, corps, friends of his enemies would start investigating as well. Its not about the spellcasting, its about the moral mayhem.

I hope it helps, as a long time reader, I decided to subscribe to be able to post this.

[Tashiro]

And that's where I disagree with you and others Tashiro.... the sense of touch on an illusion has always classically been limited to merely creating the sensation of heat or cold as appropriate. Illusions have no matter and have never exerted any kind of force. As soon as you step over that line you're into manipulations and no longer casting illusions.

There's nothing saying that illusions in Shadowrun need to mirror 'classic' (I'll read that as 'D&D') illusions. There's plenty of legends where illusions do a hell of a lot more than just sight and sound, and weak sensations. Notice I said that illusionary 'weight' doesn't provide force. Just the perception of force. If someone takes a pillow and makes an illusion that it's a sack of oats, and add the illusion of weight, the person's going to 'feel' like it weighs like a sack of oats, and act accordingly (straining, grunting, etc), because he 'feels' it weighs as much as a sack of oats. It doesn't however, the sensation of pressure and strain is all from contact. The GM doesn't enforce extra encumbrance, doesn't say 'it's too heavy to lift', or whatever, but he can say 'it feels too heavy, but you manage to lift it anyway'.

You want to make something appear heavier than it is... it's called levitate... and push down or up on the object making it appear heavier or lighter. You want to manipulate an object or shake hands at a distance... it's called "Magic fingers". And if people were talking about casting both the illusion and magic fingers to pull off some limited aspects of this such as shaking a hand or having their illusion manipulate real world objects... more power to them.

You're missing the point. Levitate creates force. Illusion can create the perception of force. If you use levitate to push down on an item it doesn't 'appear' to be heavier, it is heavier. I didn't say illusions could 'manipulate objects' or 'shake hands from a distance'. You're adding all sorts of things to what I said - that I explicitly didn't say. If you use an illusion to shake someone's hand - they will get the impression of contact and pressure, but there won't be any actual pressure. The skin doesn't move on their palm, if they curl their fingers, they'll grasp nothing but air.

As soon as you allow illusions to exert any kind of force you open a huge can of worms.

I agree, which is why I said that it doesn't. Just the perception of force. Honestly, if you're going to try to refute what I'm saying, please look at what I actually said.

Edit: One last thing. If a dwarf tries to make an illusion of being a troll, and adds tactile sense, it won't do much. If someone 'brushes up' against the troll, they might not notice they passed through the troll if they aren't paying attention. They'll 'feel' the contact of bumping him, but again - there's no force behind the sensation. They might notice that bumping him didn't interrupt their momentum at all. That's how I'd rule it.

[DnDer]

Tashiro's examples remind me of something akin to a hypnotic suggestion. I tell you something is so heavy that you will not be able to lift it, your body obeys your mind, and you cannot lift it. Making someone believe they've been shot also falls into this category, to the best of my estimation.

This creates a shady line for me regarding when an illusion becomes a mental manipulation. For the sake of this argument, I'll agree that these are still illusion spells.

How do you translate taking that hypnotic suggestion, that illusion, of weight, and turning it into a physical illusion that could fool a sensor? Or a fingerprint reader?

[The Random NPC]

Well the fingerprint scanner is basically an eye under a glass plate, but I think the standard is they're too smart and can now be fooled by illusions.

[Tashiro]

Tashiro's examples remind me of something akin to a hypnotic suggestion. I tell you something is so heavy that you will not be able to lift it, your body obeys your mind, and you cannot lift it. Making someone believe they've been shot also falls into this category, to the best of my estimation.

This creates a shady line for me regarding when an illusion becomes a mental manipulation. For the sake of this argument, I'll agree that these are still illusion spells.

How do you translate taking that hypnotic suggestion, that illusion, of weight, and turning it into a physical illusion that could fool a sensor? Or a fingerprint reader?

The difference, I would imagine, is that with an illusion, they can lift the weight, it just 'feels' heavy. If it is a mental manipulation, they can't, because they're convinced it's too heavy. I think the final line is that illusions can't force you to take an action, you still have the ability to make your own decision, while a mental manipulation removes your personal agency. I think what it boils down to is that illusions can do everything that simsense can do.

You raise a good question though - Physical illusions are tricky. Can a a physical illusion cause a scent-based trigger to go off? Well, can a physical illusion trigger a motion detector? I know physical illusions show up on cameras, and can be picked up by microphones, but no, I don't think physical illusions would, say, trigger scent-detectors, or pressure plates or motion detectors. It might trip an IR beam (since it will block the beam), but it won't trigger a motion detector that uses, say, sonar - there's no physical mass.

[Falconer]

Actually many of them aren't cameras... instead being touch/pressure sensors. At that point you're more at the illusion interacting with a touchpad.... which shouldn't happen. If it were always only a camera... I wouldn't have raised the point.


In any case, this thread shot off... when people started to make assertions that a Physical Mask would allow them to bypass biometric sensors and is a broken spell. Only possible if you allow the most broken possible reading of what an illusion is... and allow it to create force and interact with objects as if it were a manipulation and not an illusion spell. So rather than tightening the definition of an illusion is and can do to something which makes sense... they instead try to argue an illusion is not merely an illusion/hologram.


But all physical illusions are nothing more than smoke and mirrors... there is no elemental of mental tomfoolery (like mana illusions which only create images in the minds of living creatures which see them) because they also need to affect machinery and drones. So hence we get into this silly... oh it only creates the illusion of force... you either create a force to push back with or you don't. It's either a purely a mental effect (a non-physical illusion... or it's a light/smell/heat show as a physical illusion. It can't create the impression of anything... it must actually produce a physical effect of same for the spell to be a PHYSICAL illusion.

Again we're dealing with physical illusions here... which can interact with drones... none of this... creates the 'impression of force'. When the drones pressure/torque sensor in it's claw senses resistance it's because something is actually pushing back on it and creating an actual force.

[Warlordtheft]

The advice I've gotten mostly so far is, have mages in the encounters, and to have spirits guarding them.
Mages just aren't common enough to have on hand all the time and spirit binding is expensive to most people. I finally found the rules on the year long service stuff. but that raises the question of how much karma npc's have.

I want a mundane solution. "magic must fight magic" won't always be viable
And "geek the mage" isn't really a solution. killing the mage in combat is a simple matter. Wired up sammy shoots the one guy without a gun, and not looking to do kung fu.
I'm looking to keep the mage from running rough shod over everyone who can't afford a spirit. other wise my only recourse is to embrace "geek the mage" and have the mages drop like flies.

To me anything worth protecting will have mage support. But depending on the GM view of the world YMMV. Magic is also the big scary meaning anyone that does magic in a combat situation will draw attention to themselves and get a lot of lead flying in their direction. Embrace it, for geek the mage first has been part of SR lore since 1st ed.

Mob mind, control thoughts, alter memory, and mind probe are not the end all be all of casting. Mob mind, control thoughts are limited in duration, eventually the NPC will break free. Mind probe is limited to what the NPC knows, which includes false information. Altermemory is tricky cause after a while it wears off or is disrupted when the true facts come to life.

The manatech route is another possibility, it just depends on how sophisticated/well equipped the opposition is.

[The Random NPC]

When the drones pressure/torque sensor in it's claw senses resistance it's because something is actually pushing back on it and creating an actual force.

Nope, because magic.

[_Pax._]

When the drones pressure/torque sensor in it's claw senses resistance it's because something is actually pushing back on it and creating an actual force.

Nope.

It's because .... let's put it in more matrix-y terms for a moment: The sensors in the drone that tell it how much weight it's trying to lift, and so on ... all those pressure/tactile sensors? Those are a Device (sub)node. They send a signal to the core processor. And, the spell SPOOFS that signal to be one that indicates weight, pressure, whatever.

Now, do you see? The drone think there's pressure or force being applied ... when there isn't. But, all the drone (or a person fo that matter) knows of the universe, even their own body, is what information their senses send to theri brain.

The spell takes control of that information. Nothing more, nothing less.