Handling money rewards, Looking for fast and hard guidelines Options

[Lionhearted]

So my search fu is particularly weak today, because I know this discussion has to have been done before.

But as said, what factors do you base cash rewards on?
Do you have a write up or is it pure handwavium?

Thinking something along the lines of x nuyen per karma gained in the run (given that the updated karma tables factors in challenge and overall complexity)
What would X be in the case

Another way would be to break it down to it's components like Cash=n(no. of objectives*timeframe*overall challenge level)*±x% of 100 depending on screw ups and employer whim
Cash=n(no. of objectives+time frame+overall challenge)*x%±y%
X=100 Y= screw ups/leniency 1y=5
Each variable goes up to 10.
Example:

[ Spoiler ]

N=1000
Y is 0
timeframe is a tricky one but for example 1=6h 2=12h 3=24h 4=48h
Cash=N(3+3+2)*x%±y%
Cash=8000
per player or total?

Am I overthinking it?

Edit: Well, I just realised the potential ridiculous scaling of that formula... This is what happens when you do math on three hours of sleep.

[bannockburn]

My thoughts from another thread (best forgotten *giggle*)

A Johnson in my games would [...] allow for another 10-20% depending on negotiation successes.

Concrete example: Ace Team X takes 20k each for a standard run. The Johnson is in a bind and needs it done NOW! He offers 22,5k (nice round numbers) and the runners can go up to 27k (translated to between 500 and 1000 nuyen more per net success).
I also use similar modifiers as were already posted and approve of those wholeheartedly. Extra wishes cost extra money, after all and that should be understandable for a professional Johnson looking for a pro team.
Now, here's the kicker: I look at what the Johnson is paying in total. In the example above, taking a team of seven, this would amount to 189k nuyen, if we assume max hits and the J. maxing out his credit limit.
WHY is there a credit limit? Because the illegal operation needs to be worthwhile for the Johnson. He pays someone to commit a crime for him, and this is dangerous. So, in my eyes, he needs to make at least 3 times what he offered, or, in the given example around 570k nuyen, be it in money, favors, knowledge or whatever. If his profit margin falls below that, he'll simply tell the runners "Thank you for your time, now take a walk."

Usually, I plan payment in a run according to the karma I'll be giving them in the end, to eyeball the amount. A relatively easy run worth 4 Karma may pay 10k nuyen, while a hard one may pay up to 30k. This figure is further modified by a) street rep (the higher it is, the higher the base payment, I usually eyeball 1k per point) b) notoriety (same as with street rep. a team known for sometimes going overboard with their violence will suffer in their payment when they're offered a stealth job) and c) the environment I want the run to play.
Examples for c) may be:
- A ship on open sea. Difficult to get there means higher payment.
- Offered by a dragon. Runners don't like to work for the lizards, higher payment may soothe the nagging feelings of doubt
- On another continent. Travel arrangements, comfort zone, getting gear, all modifiers.
- Hostile environment. If you go to a toxic zone, special equipment is needed and health hazards abound.

Another concrete example of my thought process in creating an adventure:
Ace, the super pro gunslinger has 10 street rep. He also has a knack for leaving signs of his involvement, because he's arrogant. So far his arrogance has not caught up with him, but he's got 3 notoriety.
He's offered a run. By Hestaby. He needs to go to Chicago and get a thingamajig.
I expect the adventure to rake in between 8 and 10 Karma, so I go with 9 as an average. 9*2500 = 22500 base value.
Now, this is a dragon offering it, so I'll add 10% to the base value, getting us up to 24750
Chicago isn't the friendliest of places, but the runners are able to bring their own gear at least. Another 10% => 27000
Then we have Ace's street cred of 10, bringing the final number to 37k? That's a bit much. Let's go with 500 this time, 32k. His notoriety won't get in the way, being in Chicago he doesn't need to be real subtle.
So, 30k is what the Johnson finally offers, because Ace has another 4 guys in his team and 150k looks good on the spreadsheet. Maybe they'll negotiate him up to 35k, but this is the Johnson's limit in this case and he won't go higher, as he needs to make half a million for his boss.

[All4BigGuns]

Linking money rewards and karma rewards may keep Awakened and mundane a bit more equal, but with the way I feel karma should be awarded it wouldn't work. IMO, karma should be awarded by session and not by run/adventure/whatever.

[Lionhearted]

Well if you add up the karma for all the sessions in the run you still get the same results.

[bannockburn]

Nobody's keeping you from awarding Karma per session. I do it, it just doesn't play into my thinking about monetary rewards.
I award a base amount of karma with optional objectives and every player who shows up, gets 1 point for every session he's there. In the end it's not as if you could use it on the fly, as advancements are handled between, not during adventures, but it's a good motivator.

[All4BigGuns]

Well if you add up the karma for all the sessions in the run you still get the same results.

Main problem here is that the pay is stated fairly early in the first session, and there's a good chance you won't know how many sessions the run/adventure will take.

[Lionhearted]

Very true...
Anyone got a good basevalue?
The last run my players did netted them 23k each, it was intended to be an legwork mission with finding out if a scientist selling information to a corp was a) being shadowed b) was playing fair c) complete the transaction. It ended up as an impromptu extraction (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bannockburn]

Basevalue = (expected average karma payout) * 2500 * complications

[Lionhearted]

Well that's 37500 before complications, Then again Im not 100% sure whether Im overdoing karma
2 Sessions
1st session (using old karma table)
2/3s objectives done: 1
Good roleplay 2
Pushed the story 1
Great humour 2
Total: 6
Yeah I don't do player based karma because it's bullshit that only cause drama.
Session 2 (using 4a karma table)
Survived the adventure 2
(They were close to getting fried several times, yet only a single bullet was fired)
Objectives 3
Threat level 2
(almost having their car wrecked by a panther cannon from a response team sent because of a tapped call)
Humour 2
Total: 9

Total karma earned for run: 15
Yes the humour reward was justified, we were in stitches at many points (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bannockburn]

Hm.

• Good roleplaying
• Pushing story forward
• Humor and
• Session karma

aren't things I consider during the planning of an adventure, as these vary from player to player.

Survival, Objectives, Threat level on the other hand are something every player gets.
So, in your above example, I'd give 8 karma in total, which is around 20k before complications (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lionhearted]

Well they were paid after the fact. No,no not their fault. They're still Abacab's (the Evo subsidiary) pet runners.

[bannockburn]

I don't know what you're getting at (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I'm just saying that I reward karma in part to the team and in other parts individually, and only the team part gets considered for the calculation of the monetary reward per character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Looking over your list and maybe answering if you 'overdo it with karma':
Personally, I only give 1 point for good roleplaying, pushing the story and humor per adventure and player, not per session.
So, for the same adventure, I'd have given each player 8 karma base, additionally 1 for each session he showed up. And if one player pushed the story and was funny and was a good roleplayer, that would amount to 13 karma for the whole shebang. Not THAT much difference, imo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Lionhearted]

Pretty much what I was asking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Been a very long time since I was able to delve into the shadows and first time GMing it. Lots of blanks to fill in with the basics, and having no frame of reference like you do in D&D makes for a lot of guesstimation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[thorya]

This is something I made a couple of years ago to give a group an idea of whether they were getting ripped off or not. Prices have varied, but I think it still gives a good range on where we put things price wise.

Average Price List for SR Jobs
Generally prices follow the trend that the high the risk of getting caught, the higher the risk of getting hurt, and the higher the skill level required the more money a job is worth. Competition also plays a part. If a thug off the street can be hired or an everyday person can do it, then the price will be even lower.

Surveillance - 20-80 ¥ (a day)
Surveillance (dangerous subject) - 100-200 ¥
Pick-pocketing
Money, drugs or other quickly liquidated valuables
Amount stolen + 50-500 ¥ depending on target
Item
20-30% of price of stolen item
Threatening (Delivering others threats or conveying threats to be enacted by others)
Squatters/Low Class Citizens - 20-60 ¥
Average Citizen - 80-100 ¥
Wealthy or Connected Individual - 200 ¥
Someone in Power or Dangerous - 5000 ¥
Burglary
Info - 2-10% of the expected value or 1000 ¥ whichever is higher
Money - 20-80% or fixed price (usually they're providing intel or resources to justify their cut)
Artwork - ~5% of the price
Items - Varies, typically some percentage of the items value. More for an item that can easily be sold on the street without a connection.
Smash and Grab
Varies depending on where and what. Usually thugs can be found willing to pull jobs like this for as little as 20 ¥. They are not very reliable though.
Vandalism
Matrix - 50 - 500 ¥ (to take down matrix sites/nodes or otherwise mess with them, this is not hacking and stealing pay data)
Industrial Sabotage - 2000-5000 ¥
Political Sabotage - 1000-2000 ¥
Revenge/Personal - 100-500 ¥
Distraction - 50-100 ¥ (for someone else's run or crime)
Find Someone - 150-1000 ¥
Recover Someone that's been kidnapped or otherwise captured -
Depends on who took them and who they were and how much is known. 1000-100,000 ¥
Actively Tailing Someone - 50-100 ¥
Dangerous Individual - 1000-3000 ¥
Kidnapping (depends upon the situation and state the person needs to be delivered in, this is not ransom values)
Squatters/Low Class Citizens- 200-1500 ¥
Average Citizen - 800-6000 ¥
Wealthy or Connected Individual -8,000-500,000 ¥
Someone in Power or Dangerous Individual (i.e. a high level mage, corporate executive with full security detail, etc.) - 50,000-5,000,000 ¥
Assassination/Murder
Squatters/Low Class Citizens = Low Risk – Low Skill -200-2000 ¥
Average Citizen = Moderate Risk – Low Skill - 10,000-100,000 ¥
Wealthy or Connected Individual = High Risk - Moderate Skill - 150,000-500,000 ¥
Someone in Power or Dangerous Individual = High Risk – High Skill - 150,000-1,000,000 ¥
Blackmail
Depends upon how much a person has to pay for the information. Runner’s jobs are usually pick-ups, exchanges, etc. Though Runners can blackmail directly.
Delivery/Pick-up (no questions asked, could be drugs, threats, letters, bribe money, a bomb) - 50-100 ¥
Exchange (hostages for the information, drugs for money, etc.) High Risk – Low Skill -200-500 ¥
Arson -200-1000 ¥
Guard duty - Varies typically less than 200 ¥, but legal
Recovery (getting back items, people, etc. that have been taken. Legal job)
1-5% of the price of the item recovered, other factors can raise the price
Roughing Someone Up
Squatters/Low Class Citizens Low Risk – Low Skill - 20-50 ¥
Average Citizen Low Risk – Low Skill - 40-100 ¥
Wealthy or Connected Individual High Risk – Low Skill - 2,000-100,000 ¥
Someone in Power or Very Dangerous Individual = This is Suicide – Moderate Skill - 500,000-5,000,000
Bounty
Whatever price they have on their head
Demolitions
Varies depending on size starts at 1000 ¥

Modifiers for prices (Prices increase from the base prices by multiplying depending upon the specifics of the job). Maximum total increase typically x5.
Expenses may be added to the price if it’s agreed upon up front and they're reasonable.
Runner has a good reputation- 1-1.5x
Runner has a bad reputation – 0.5-0.75x
Exclusivity of information (won’t sell to others)- 1.25x
Secrecy (Some amount of professionalism and confidentiality is expected. This is supposed to guarantee that the job won’t be talked about with other runners or anyone not directly involved. Buyer beware on how reliable this is)- 1.5-2x
Magical Protection on whatever the target is- 2-4x
Target is very high profile or a mob site- 2-5x depending on security level
Complicated security- 1.2-2x
Leave no evidence the crime was committed – 2-5x
Implicate someone else – 1.5-4x depending on how well and who is implicated
Limited Information up front- 3-6x
No civilian causalities- 1.5x (causalities in general are seen as sloppy)
Part of a bigger job- +0.5x of the smaller jobs price added to the price for the bigger job
Group discounts can apply

[Lionhearted]

Basevalue = (expected average karma payout) * 2500 * complications

I like this because it's simple to keep track of. However how do you define complications?
Current mock up of run Im planning.
Total karma reward: 9
Survive: 2, Objectives: 4 (5), Challenge 3.
Description: Obtain biosample from an runaway rival corp scientist. Scientist have sought refuge with street gangs (under the pretense that the sample will give them an edge against other gangs). Rival corp want sample back, expect them to oppose you (rival team racing to the finish), getting the scientist out is optional (bonus objective)

What would you treat as complications there?
and would it simply stack up?
1 complication: x1cash 2: x2 cash etc.?

[bannockburn]

Like some of the examples in my initial post.

A rush job
A dragon hires you
You can't take your own gear.
Johnson wants to come with.

Basically everything that makes your job more difficult and / or complicated or something that might make you suspicious, the sky is the limit.
Johnson doesn't want to meet? Up goes the price.

In your example ... I wouldn't treat anything as a complication, but a tight timeframe might qualify.

Going from your example of 9 karma as average payout, I'd estimate 17500+10% = 19250 (or an even 20k) as payment.

[Lionhearted]

Ohhh, I see.
Yeah this will do nicely.
Thorya that's actually an awesome list from the other end of the spectrum aswell.
Like if the players want to hire hangers to rough someone up or a street runt to keep tab on who enters the gambling den that night.

[Lionhearted]

Going from your example of 9 karma as average payout, I'd estimate 17500+10% = 19250 (or an even 20k) as payment.

9*2500= 22500 *1.1 = 24750 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Let's say 25000 for good measure and 3000 for the scientist

[bannockburn]

Err. Wow. Yeah, that's what I first wrote, then brainfart occured and I edited it. It's getting late here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

However, I would include the 3k in the original 25k if you include the karma for the bonus objective in your calculation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Lionhearted]

Oh no it's 9 karma if they don't rescue her.

[bannockburn]

Right then, there you go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)