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> Gymnastic dodge, when and how?, An old GM n00bs out.
Tias
post Jan 3 2013, 12:27 PM
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So, I'm making a cheat sheet for a new Shadowrun group, and suddenly noticed that old thing, the Gymnastic Dodge. I would like my players to able to use it (it is flavorful, if nothing else), but the wording confuses me. It simply states that a character may add her Gymnastics skill to any dodge POOL she makes - does this not imply that Gymnastics is automatically added to any dodge attempt? Rea+Gymnastics without dropping an action, Rea+Dodge+Gym on full dodge, and Gym added to any dodge pool in melee? It must be a woolly wording, otherwise all characters could just up their gymnastics for astronomic dodge pools.

When, and how, is the Gymnastic Dodge modifier applied?

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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 3 2013, 01:10 PM
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Gymnastics Dodge is an undercategory of Full Defense. You can either use Full Dodge, Full Parry or Gymnastics Dodge.
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Neraph
post Jan 3 2013, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 3 2013, 07:10 AM) *
Gymnastics Dodge is an undercategory of Full Defense. You can either use Full Dodge, Full Parry or Gymnastics Dodge.

Correct. Gymnastics Dodge is listed under Full Defense on page 160 of SR4A. The actual wording of Gymnastics Dodge is that it is added to the "dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks," not the "dodge pool."

As a House-Rule you can allow Gymnastics Dodge to be used in melee attacks as well (instead of Weaponskill [Parry] or Dodge).
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Tias
post Jan 3 2013, 04:18 PM
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All right, thanks a lot!

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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 3 2013, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jan 3 2013, 04:13 PM) *
As a House-Rule you can allow Gymnastics Dodge to be used in melee attacks as well (instead of Weaponskill [Parry] or Dodge).

This sentence makes no sense, as you (and the rulebook) already stated that gymnastics dodge can be used in melee
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Neraph
post Jan 3 2013, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 3 2013, 10:25 AM) *
This sentence makes no sense, as you (and the rulebook) already stated that gymnastics dodge can be used in melee

I meant as part of the normal defense. It can be used as part of a Full Defense, giving up your next action, but I was referring to the normal defense roll you are entitled to when attacked in melee.
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Lionhearted
post Jan 3 2013, 05:21 PM
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You only add your gymnastics skill rating to the check right?
As in Reaction+Gymnastics not Reaction+Gymnastics+Agility
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 3 2013, 05:33 PM
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Yes - and because the book says skill rating, and not skill, i wonder if the boni from synthacardium and enhanced articulation would apply.
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Neraph
post Jan 3 2013, 05:34 PM
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I would allow any dicepool modifiers for Gymnastics to add to Gymnastics Dodge. For example, Adept's abilities and Reflex Recorders.
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Makki
post Jan 3 2013, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 3 2013, 07:33 PM) *
Yes - and because the book says skill rating, and not skill, i wonder if the boni from synthacardium and enhanced articulation would apply.

I have heard of groups that do allow this. Defense pool can get insane.
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 3 2013, 05:45 PM
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Synthacardium 3, Enhanced Articulation, Neo-Epo and Reflex Recorder - thats a +6 Bonus, nice ^^
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Neraph
post Jan 3 2013, 05:50 PM
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Yup, and unless you're in melee combat you're giving up a IP for it. Nice trade-off in my opinion.

In all the games I've played I don't think I've ever gone on Full Defense.
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Lionhearted
post Jan 3 2013, 05:50 PM
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"How did you do that?"
"Do what?"
"You moved like they do, I've never seen anyone move that fast"
"Not fast enough"
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bannockburn
post Jan 3 2013, 05:50 PM
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The book actually says "Skill", not skill rating.
QUOTE (BBB @ p. 160)
and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.


So yeah. Anything that enhances the skill, enhances the dodge. Doesn't matter, IMO.
Allowing it in normal close combat instead of full defense is a house rule, though one I've seen used commonly. Still doesn't matter, IMO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Giving up an IP is no difference to the dodge skill, btw, or what did you mean by that, Neraph?


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Falconer
post Jan 3 2013, 06:20 PM
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Firstly the rule aren't cut and dried as to whether you can add synthacardium and other dice pool modifiers to these. Some say it's not an athletics test it's a ranged defense test which only happens to use the skill. I tend to fall in favor of allowing it though as it is using an athletics skill in a test, but some GM's might not agree. That said, skill modifiers which augment the skill value directly (like reflex records) would always apply here though. That's an important distinction to make... SR has dice pool modifiers which are added to the entire pool... and skill modifiers which change the value of the skill you add.


Also it's a lousy house rule to allow it for normal mundane melee defense. The gymnastics option only pertains to full defense. The pools which result make melee even LESS desirable. A bad outcome, melee is reasonably good now... in the don't bring a knife to a gunfight mold... but it doesn't need gymnastics non-combat skill cheese destroying it even more without forcing the target to go on full defense as per the rules.


Page 156 of the rules makes this very clear... under defending against melee combat. Gymnastics is not listed at all as an option. It's the reason why people only recommend gymnastics dodge if you already have a melee skill. Because unlike the dodge skill you can't add 2x your dodge to the melee defense test, you can only add melee + gymnastics to a full defense.

RAW is:
Normal attack:
Ranged: Reaction
Melee: Reaction (+ melee/dodge)

Full defense options choose to use one:
Full dodge
Ranged: reaction + dodge
Melee: Reaction + melee/dodge + dodge (you can add your dodge twice if its better than your melee skill)

Full parry
Ranged: no bonus... Reaction only
Melee: Reaction + melee + melee (you get twice your melee)

Full gymnastics:
Ranged: Reaction + gymnastics
melee: Reaction + melee + gymnastics
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bannockburn
post Jan 3 2013, 06:24 PM
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Well, for me a test using an attribute (reaction) and a skill (dodge or gymnastics) is a skill test. Hence I allow it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I don't allow it in close combat except for full defense, for the reasons you've stated falconer, and the recommendation is also valid.
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Tias
post Jan 3 2013, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jan 3 2013, 06:50 PM) *
Yup, and unless you're in melee combat you're giving up a IP for it. Nice trade-off in my opinion.

In all the games I've played I don't think I've ever gone on Full Defense.


Well, it is more or less necessary if you don't have magical/surgical IP bonuses, and are out of Edge.

'Course, people rarely get to that point, but some people do play 1 IP characters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Falconer
post Jan 3 2013, 07:50 PM
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Actually it also works nicely going the other way... street sam dodge monkey kicks door down... charges in on full defense. Draws a lot of fire... does it maybe one more round if the mooks have a 2nd pass... then proceeds to use his 3rd and 4th pass to demolish targets after they've blown their wad.

Full defense works when you have an initiative advantage.

Also full defense doesn't stop movement.... so it's a great way to spend one IP getting to cover without getting shot to pieces. It's also a great tactic for a melee type... full defense for a round while you close range.

Then there's the melee specialist types with 2 weapon defense who are always on full defense against melee...

Of course many people go for peace through superior firepower instead... which has it's advantages they just potentially take more damage in the process.
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Neraph
post Jan 3 2013, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 3 2013, 12:20 PM) *
Firstly the rule aren't cut and dried as to whether you can add synthacardium and other dice pool modifiers to these. Some say it's not an athletics test it's a ranged defense test which only happens to use the skill. I tend to fall in favor of allowing it though as it is using an athletics skill in a test, but some GM's might not agree. That said, skill modifiers which augment the skill value directly (like reflex records) would always apply here though. That's an important distinction to make... SR has dice pool modifiers which are added to the entire pool... and skill modifiers which change the value of the skill you add.


Also it's a lousy house rule to allow it for normal mundane melee defense. The gymnastics option only pertains to full defense. The pools which result make melee even LESS desirable. A bad outcome, melee is reasonably good now... in the don't bring a knife to a gunfight mold... but it doesn't need gymnastics non-combat skill cheese destroying it even more without forcing the target to go on full defense as per the rules.


Page 156 of the rules makes this very clear... under defending against melee combat. Gymnastics is not listed at all as an option. It's the reason why people only recommend gymnastics dodge if you already have a melee skill. Because unlike the dodge skill you can't add 2x your dodge to the melee defense test, you can only add melee + gymnastics to a full defense.

First, chill-pill. Second, note that I clearly stated using Gymnastics was a House-Rule. Third, also note that I said I personally would allow modifiers to be added. Anyone remotely familiar with how I operate on this board would know that I always give book, page, section, and usually paragraph and even sentence notation when I quote rules.
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Tiberius
post Jan 4 2013, 11:21 PM
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Gymnastics as a dodge is kind of odd. gymnastics aren't something you do in one place, it takes you over distances doing flips, and cart wheels.
Personally I would require them to move a minimum distance before they can use gymnastics to dodge.

I'm also considering a house rule that allows you to make a gymnastics check when moving as a simple action. how ever many hits you get, get added to any defense pools that turn

so if you run, and use a simple action to do gymnastics, you roll your gymnastics skill. if you get 5 hits, then whenever you have to roll a defense then you add 5 dice to the pool.
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bannockburn
post Jan 4 2013, 11:23 PM
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Nevertheless, it's RAW and in the book. I like it as it doesn't mean, everyone has to buy the dodge skill. Alternatives are good.

Your houserule is intriguing, but keep in mind, that it usually takes a full complex action to use a skill.
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Tiberius
post Jan 4 2013, 11:28 PM
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it would be like sprint.
to sprint is a simple action and you make a run check to go faster
for this it's a simple action, and you make a gymnastics check to be a harder target.
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Lionhearted
post Jan 4 2013, 11:43 PM
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I make a habit of never bringing "reality works this way, therefore..." Into rule discussions. Because movement in SR is decoupled from all but the most basic actions you can't really draw parallels to a system like D&D where movement is a major investment.
As I see it, when you use gymnastics dodge you don't necessarily stay in the same 1m/1m area, but rather cartwheel, drops/stands and acrobat your way out of danger in the same general area meaning you end up in the same location, unless ofcourse you stay at one of the locations you winded up at (free action to move there)
If you look at melee combat it's described as a series of exchanges rather then "hit guy, wait around to get punched".

PS Heeey you got a face Bannock (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
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bannockburn
post Jan 4 2013, 11:53 PM
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Yeh. The old dwarf needed one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To keep ontopic: Yeah, in tight surroundings I sometimes slap players who want to gymnastics dodge with a penalty, when it seems appropriate.
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Tiberius
post Jan 5 2013, 12:19 AM
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I sometimes do the "reality works this way". It depends on the game and the situation.
Shooting a crossbow like ten times as an attack (it's a 4.0 rogue power), I call BS on. That's not how crossbows work.

But I don't mind being able to reload a wind-lass crossbow in 6 seconds vs. a minute or more. I also don't mind the fast reload feat that lets you load lighter crossbows as a free action. It all depends.
I'll buy loading a crossbow fast, but I don't buy firing one off like a machine gun (repeating crossbows are the exception, and they are cool).

doesn't bother me as much, but I don't buy how daily powers work in 4.0.
"I already swung my sword that way today, I can't do it again!"

In shadowrun, I tend to use a variation; "movies work this way"
The rules for vehicle combat make it so anyone with 1 ip can't do anything. the drivers all lose 1 ip just for driving. maaaaaybe this is realistic. I don't know, Haven't rode a motorcycle while shooting off handguns to find out.
I don't like it because it makes combat less cinematic. you don't get that guy on the motorcycle driving with one hand and spraying lead with the other. and if you want to just throw a lot of un-augmented grunts at them, then they can only drive up and look at them funny.
So next time vehicles come up i'm house ruling that controlling the vehicle is a simple , and any uncompensated recoil becomes a penalty to your driving check
more cinematic that way,
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