Mundanes: Self-Imposed Mechanical Punishment? Options

[_Pax._]

This particular discussion is frequent in MMO communities and I'll do my best to explain the dilemma.
Almost every RPG game system is based on numbers and mathematics. As such there will be an undeniably best way to create a character.
With Shadowrun it's a system designed around and balanced around the notion that you're either using technology or magic (As I stated earlier, even the original creators say this)
You can choose to be using neither, but doing so you're undeniably choosing to be mechanically worse.

Arguably, a "mundane" is still using technology. Just, not the kind that is surgically implanted.

In SR4, you no longer must have a cybernetic implant, in order to gain the full and unfettered benefits of a Smartlink. You no longer must have a cybernetic implant, in order to go into full VR and hack into some corporation's secure computer systems. Contact lenses and 'trodes cover each activity, respectively.

As such while an unaugmented mundane certainly isn't the optimal option, it's existence is justified by the nature of the game.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Do you accept hugs from complete strangers ...?

I'd like to add an anecdote, by the way, to that sentence: sometimes, it's about the differing perspective of an unaugmented character.

For an example, look at Ghost in the Shell, the series more than the movies. Major Kusanagi Motoko, a full-body cyborg in command of a heavily augmented team of black-ops specialists, went out of her wat to specifically recruit a completely unaugmented police detective. (I forget the guy's name, dammit ...!) And the reason was, explicitly, that she wanted the added and divergent perspective he would bring to the team. The very fact that he was unaugmented, was in itself valuable in that it provided all of Section 9 with an additional point of view - which, coupled with his Police training and experience, made him an asset "despite" his lack of augmentation. A lack, by the by, which he could and did "make up for" with non-augment technology ... and tactics. And probably very, very, VERY good medical insurance, hahaha!

But anyway: in the ensemble-cast approach most RPG campaigns take, it might profit the group as a whole to have someone unaugmented around. Yes, even if they're only 80% or 85% as purely-mechanically optimised for their niche on the team. Because their lack of augmentations gives them an IC point-of-view that the other characters may lack.

And even more importantly, it produces roleplay opportunities between the characters.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

The guy is named Togusa, and he is "left home" a few times when bullets start to fly (at least at the end of GitS:SAC)

[UmaroVI]

An unaugmented mundane is always suboptimal, but whether it's suboptimal enough to be a problem at your table depends on your table so trying to argue about that is largely pointless.

Command riggers are the least suboptimal type of unaugmented mundane. Compared to an adept rigger, you're going to be out Multitasking and 2-3 dice on your core skills. If that's a small enough amount that it doesn't matter at your table, then you are "adequate." Of course, things get worse very fast if you're trying to do anything other than just command rig and nothing else.

The reason I generally recommend against the unaugmented mundane is because for every decently constructed command rigger unaugmented mundane, I've probably seen 20 or 30 unaugmented human mundanes with average stat-itis, a bunch of skill groups at low ratings, and an Ares Predator IV.

[_Pax._]

Hey, my general preference is for an Adept. It's easier to hit those "adequately competent" die pools.

But easier, doesn't mean "only right way". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

I've probably seen 20 or 30 unaugmented human mundanes with average stat-itis, a bunch of skill groups at low ratings, and an Ares Predator IV.

I've seen one, and it killed more things in that game than the borged out street sams.


Seriously though, Pax, you're starting to fall into the "Munchkin! Munchkin! Get thee behind me!" trap. Chill out, man. It's not that important.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually it does. If your dice pool is 15 for a task and another guy's is 8 for a task, you are clearly better at that task than he is.

And yet, if all you need for the task to be sucessful is 1 hit, the guy who has double the dice pool has suboptimized his character, because those resources required to get to that double dice pool could have been spent more efficiently in a better place than he chose to do so. *shrug*

Over kill does exist in the optimization camp. You can easily overoptimize.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I optimize my character so that they are competent (DP 8-12) in as many fields as i can get, and 'ware does really help there.

[Umidori]

Pax, you keep going on about "viable" characters and how mundanes can compete and can be good enough.

But will you at least concede that, pound for pound, point for point, augmentations and magic make a character significantly more powerful and robust, even if neither is needed to be viable? Because that's the ultimate root of the topic.

Personally? I wish that Essence had a bigger impact. Cyberware gives you great benefits at the cost of Essence. But what is the price of Essence? Well, if you're awakened, it directly impacts your magical power. But what about if you're mundane? There's no opportunity cost to spending Essence if you aren't Awakened. It's a free resource pool that can only be drawn from if you take augmentations, and that otherwise goes to waste.

Maybe Essence needs to provide some sort of bonus to mundanes. Or maybe losing Essence needs to have greater penalties for those who go fully augmented. Suffice it to say, Essence as it currently exists only benefits augmented or awakened characters, and that's kind of a ripoff, mechanically speaking.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I optimize my character so that they are competent (DP 8-12) in as many fields as i can get, and 'ware does really help there.

I too look towards the Competent DP of 8-12 in as many skills as possible. There is no argument that augmentations do help here, but they are not required to reach that point.

[Lionhearted]

I don't see why you would receive a benefit for not doing something and if you penalize over-augmentation you must penalize magical characters to maintain decent equilibrium.
Essence is there to prevent magi from double dipping. Personally Im fine with it being just that.

[All4BigGuns]

I too look towards the Competent DP of 8-12 in as many skills as possible. There is no argument that augmentations do help here, but they are not required to reach that point.

Sometimes I go for that range, sometimes I go for a bit more, and sometimes I go for "as many as I can get". It all depends on the character I'm making and my mood at the time--if something really pissed me off at work, I'm more likely to go for the last one. All that said, I know that I would go for less if there was a better chance per die of getting a "success".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sometimes I go for that range, sometimes I go for a bit more, and sometimes I go for "as many as I can get". It all depends on the character I'm making and my mood at the time--if something really pissed me off at work, I'm more likely to go for the last one. All that said, I know that I would go for less if there was a better chance per die of getting a "success".

Some of the best stories come out of failure to succeed at your task. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[vladski]

Personally? I wish that Essence had a bigger impact. Cyberware gives you great benefits at the cost of Essence. But what is the price of Essence? Well, if you're awakened, it directly impacts your magical power. But what about if you're mundane? There's no opportunity cost to spending Essence if you aren't Awakened. It's a free resource pool that can only be drawn from if you take augmentations, and that otherwise goes to waste.

Maybe Essence needs to provide some sort of bonus to mundanes. Or maybe losing Essence needs to have greater penalties for those who go fully augmented. Suffice it to say, Essence as it currently exists only benefits augmented or awakened characters, and that's kind of a ripoff, mechanically speaking.

~Umi

Maybe have have every full point of Essence be a bonus die to spell defense for the mundane character? Or maybe one die for every 2 full points to keep it more in-bounds? I would rule that anyone that is awakened doesn't receive this bonus. A little equalizer for the un-cybered and lightly cybered vs. magic.

Vlad

[Lionhearted]

Null magician!
(never figured out if that was something homebrewn or actually a thing)
Basically a mundane archetype focused on countering mages by having extreme innate spell resistance and means to distrupt magic.

[Umidori]

Oddly, the best way to counter magic is to be a mystic adept. Let's you use counterspelling with bonus dice from the Sorcerous Parry Magician's Way Adept, plus metamagics. Can hit 15-20+ dice to resist spells.

~Umi

[Glyph]

Maybe Essence needs to provide some sort of bonus to mundanes. Or maybe losing Essence needs to have greater penalties for those who go fully augmented. Suffice it to say, Essence as it currently exists only benefits augmented or awakened characters, and that's kind of a ripoff, mechanically speaking.

See, stuff like that touches on one of the main issues that I have with people who play something suboptimal for "roleplaying" reasons. They want to have their cake and eat it, too. They pick something deliberately weaker, but then they want the GM to either cut them special breaks, or make the other characters weaker in some way.

If I played a mundane character in a game, I would expect to have to use a lot of cunning and tactics to make up for being less powerful. I wouldn't expect to be able to directly compete with the cybered-up vatjobs; I would roleplay someone struggling to make it in the deep end. I wouldn't ask the GM to give me special bonuses or abilities. I would be choosing to play such a character, when given the same options as everyone else in character creation.

[binarywraith]

Arguably, a "mundane" is still using technology. Just, not the kind that is surgically implanted.

In SR4, you no longer must have a cybernetic implant, in order to gain the full and unfettered benefits of a Smartlink. You no longer must have a cybernetic implant, in order to go into full VR and hack into some corporation's secure computer systems. Contact lenses and 'trodes cover each activity, respectively.

To be fair, you've been able to use smartgoggles since at least SR2, and 'trode nets since SR1 (they being the method of Matrix use before datajacks even existed).

[toturi]

More useful than what, exactly? If 12 Dice will suffice, and I can get there with no Augments or Magic, why is 15 Dice MORE useful? It is actually pretty wasteful, in that regard.

If I can get an unaugmented character with an Initiative of 13, WHY would I need an Initiative of 17?
1 IP is useable. And there are ways to obtain a 2nd IP without having to resort to magic or ware when you absolutley MUST have a 2nd pass.

Your entire position is Subjective, since it will change from table to table. *shrug*

If 12 is sufficient but you can have 15, it depends on how easily you can get that 3 more dice. If you can get an unaugmented character with Init 13, but can (assuming) with minimal costs in either karma or BP or whatever resources spent during chargen, you can easily (again assuming, not that I am saying that it is easy) get to Init 17 but requiring augmentation, then the question isn't why would you NEED an init of 17 but why would you NOT get that Init 17? Same with the additional IP.

My entire position is based on the state of the chargen rules; if the rules change, then my position change.

[Glyph]

I have played characters with dice pools in the high teens or above, and in my experience, it usually isn't overkill. I have gotten through those scapes by the skin of my teeth. Shadowrun is a very lethal game, and a few dice can sometimes be the difference between success and failure - or you can still fail.


The point of overkill is more of a metagame thing. It is overkill when you are so protected or overwhelming in one area that the GM feels compelled to resort to drastic tactics. So while having 40 damage soaking dice or 40 social skill dice might be awesome numerically, in practice it has only painted a target on your character's forehead. If you had, say, 25 damage soaking dice, or 18 social skill dice, you might still be able to soak most damage or win most social contests. The GM won't mind, though, because the character is not invincible-looking, and can at least potentially be challenged.

It was this thread on the other forums that put me in mind of this issue, but there are plenty of similar threads on Dumpshock. The old "Help, this character has X dice for X, he's breaking my game!" So it may not seem logical (and it isn't - also, it tends to be the newer GMs who panic over such characters), but sometimes it is best to be really good, but leave a miniscule chance of failure, so that the GM doesn't feel compelled to make one.

[All4BigGuns]

Some of the best stories come out of failure to succeed at your task. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not really. I think that failure makes the game dull, boring and lifeless, whereas success makes it interesting and fun.

[Lionhearted]

Not really. I think that failure makes the game dull, boring and lifeless, whereas success makes it interesting and fun.

Then your failings are simply not epic enough, tales of success and ingenuity are good. But tales of truly epic failures are the ones that retold for years to come!

[_Pax._]

Seriously though, Pax, you're starting to fall into the "Munchkin! Munchkin! Get thee behind me!" trap. Chill out, man. It's not that important.

No, I'm not.

I myself am a powergamer; I like tweakign the numbers around, I like eking out that last +1 or +2.

However, I am not so enamored of sdoing so that I have deluded myself into thinking that it's the only right way. Numerically-optimised or not, what matters is "does the presence of this character contribute to the story, and to the group's enjoyment thereof".

[All4BigGuns]

No, I'm not.

I myself am a powergamer; I like tweakign the numbers around, I like eking out that last +1 or +2.

However, I am not so enamored of sdoing so that I have deluded myself into thinking that it's the only right way. Numerically-optimised or not, what matters is "does the presence of this character contribute to the story, and to the group's enjoyment thereof".

The thing is, no one was saying that it's "the only right way". You have just been saying that that is what they're claiming.

[_Pax._]

Maybe Essence needs to provide some sort of bonus to mundanes. Or maybe losing Essence needs to have greater penalties for those who go fully augmented. Suffice it to say, Essence as it currently exists only benefits augmented or awakened characters, and that's kind of a ripoff, mechanically speaking.

-1d for every 2 full points of Essence lost (round up), against all Social tests, perhaps?

That would model a growign detachment from mainstream metahumanity. The lightly-augmented guys with 4.5+ essence leftwouldn't feel it enough to have a mechanical penalty, but those more-chrome-than-flesh guys with the 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 Essence ratings would be feeling a bit of a sting ...

[_Pax._]

The thing is, no one was saying that it's "the only right way". You have just been saying that that is what they're claiming.

In the other thread, yeah, that was the general claim made that spawned this whole spin-off thread.