SR, gritty Cyberpunk themes, and which books are must haves Options

[gmanjkd]

Hi guys/gals.    I have taken about a 10+ year break from RPG's.  I love the SR universe and have played some of 1st and 2nd but mostly in 3rd edition.   I am planning to run an SR campaign and did not realize that the SR universe had changed so dramatically.  I have ordered the SR4A book because everyone seams to agree that the rules are the most streamlined.  What I have always loved about the SR universe is the GRITTY, CYBERPUNK themes.  My research on the forums has discovered that SR4 apparently deviates greatly from this and moves more toward Transhumanism.  Im sure this is still fun and great but not what I had in mind.  I don't mind playing in this new imagining of the SR universe but I would like to have the experience of getting there from the beginning, instead of skipping to the last book in a Saga of novels and trying to piece together the importance and gravity of the events that are unfolding, why/how they came about.  Its one thing to watch Return of the Jedi,  Its an entirely different experience if you have seen A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back before viewing it. 

Sorry I digress.

 With this discovery it appears to me that I will need to purchase the SR 2050 book, and hunt down tons of older books to achieve the Gritty, Cyberpunk feel and themes, unless i want to do a tremendous amount of reworking the SR4 world, which I neither have the time, Knowledge of the Universe or desire to do.   After researching different books and forums this pursuit  seam a bit overwhelming.   The shear number of Adventures, and Sourcebooks from the 1-3 editions is astronomical not to mention the amount of books that are out for 4th.  From my perspective they all look great!    While i do have some experience with the universe and love it, after 10+ years away from SR I am basically a noob to the universe and consequently have very little concept of what adventures/sorcebooks best convey the feeling, flavor, themes and vital high points of the setting throughout the SR timeline.  I am left with the impression that it will be nigh impossible to catch up on the universe if I want to achieve the Gritty Cyberpunk feel AND use the newer streamlined rules.  Either I skip the first 3 editions and all of the Cool Cyberpunk themes or I start fresh with the newer SR4A universe, or lastly wait until SR5 later this year.   Either way I am missing what feels to be a huge part of the experience of Shadowrun.  To refer to my prior example, I only get to watch the Phantom Menace. 

This endeavor began with my plan of running a campaign  beginning in 2050, utilizing the SR4A, and SR 2050 books,  Running a few published adventures from each edition, touching on the highlights of the timeline presented during each edition to get myself and my players a well established and fleshed out understanding of the rich history of the SR world over the last 20 years, to arrive at the SR 5th editions doorstep shortly after it is released.  I  was basically thinking of a year long campaign to catch up, and then run 5th,  however like I mentioned above having very little experience with the SR world every adventure/book looks to be Invaluable.  This is making it impossible to discern what books are important to the setting, and which books are after thoughts.  If this were a video game RPG,  Which books are the Story Missions and which ones are the Side Missions? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)    I can do without the side missions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)  

Which books are "MUST HAVES"?

P.S.

These are the books I have on order.  SR4A and The Sixth World Almanac.

Thanks All
Gary

[Lionhearted]

I'd say you give fourth a chance before you dismiss it as not cyberpunk, dystopia and chrome is still there, just more modern.

For major plot points the ones I can think of on top of my head

• Year of the comet
• The insect spirits and Chicago
• The Renraku arcology

[TheWanderingJewe...]

IF you can find it, The Aztlan book if you want to go the grimdark route

[nezumi]

For style points, I'd look at some of the SR1/2 splat books; Shadowtech, Grimoire, Rigger's Black Book, Street Samurai Catalog, Shadowbeat, Neao-Anarchists Guide to North America, Corporate Download or COrporate Shadowfiles. I'd avoid anything about the mercenary jobs, since they escalate stuff a few notches, usually out of the grim and dark streets.

I would AVOID Year of the Comet or anything following, because that's when things took a turn for the, well, weird, and really lost a lot of that cyberpunk credo.

Regarding adventures;
Universal Brotherhood & Queen Euphoria (brings you up to 2055)
Renraku Arcology: Shutdown (brings you up to 2065)

I don't know what year you're playing. I imagine 2070, since that's the default for SR4. If so, you'll also want to do a little reading up on the death of Dunkelzahn and the burning of Denver. You'll probably want to read Year of the Comet, because it's a historical event, even if it takes the game places you don't want to go. Then you'll need to read all of the background stuff from the SR4 book to bring you fully up to date. There's no requirement you play in 2070 though, so if you're playing in 2050, just read Universal Brotherhood/Queen Euphoria (if you're a GM. Buy it for your GM if you're a player.)

[Lionhearted]

Definitely run bugs it's absolutely worth your time.
• Universal brotherhood: the events leading up to the "incident"
• Burning Blood bright: Novel, haven't read it personally but it leads up to bug city
• Bug city: The aftermaths of the incident
• Queen Euphoria: Adventure about saving a sim starlet from insect shamans, Uhm... It's actually really good
• Double exposure: Adventure module about investigating a relief organisation in the barrens.

Personally I like YotC, each to his own. It's great for spike inspired tangents.

[Epicedion]

You could always just play SR3. I'm afraid you'll find that the SR4 rules aren't really comparatively streamlined, as the number of calculations you have to make remains approximately the same, and SR4 at its core involves rolling more dice more times. Most of SR3's complexity is introduced in either rarely-used systems (explosive power being proportional to the square root of the quantity) or in players deciding how to allocate their pool dice.

To clarify, in SR4 if you shoot at someone you perform the following series of tasks:
Add skill dice to attribute dice
Apply modifiers for situation, gear, etc (+2 dice from my smartlink, -1 die because I'm walking, -2 dice for range, etc) which are by and large the SR3 combat modifiers just applied to a dice pool instead of a target number
Roll dice, count hits
Target receives Reaction dice
Apply modifiers for cover, how many times dodged this turn, wounds, etc
Roll dice, count hits
Take base of weapon, apply net hits for modified damage
Calculate defense (armor minus AP plus body minus wounds etc)
Roll defense dice, count hits, subtract from damage
Apply damage

In SR3 the tasks are:
Add pool dice to skill dice
Apply modifiers as above to base range target number
Roll dice, count successes
Target may choose to roll pool dice for dodging
Scale damage from net successes to get modified damage code
Subtract armor from weapon power, modify target number for wound penalties, etc
Roll body dice against target number, count successes
Scale damage code accordingly
Apply damage

SR4 has more steps (though they may possibly be considered "simpler").

Otherwise, the hacking system from SR4 is loads more math and rolling than the decking system from SR3 (ACIFS really isn't hard: target number for everything based on system, subtract program, voila), along with the complication of the hacker being able to hack anywhere/anytime/anything(? not clear in rules) which leads to plenty of "let me hack the guard's comlink" gameplay which pretty much mirrors the "decker phase, go get pizza" issue from SR3 games except it happens all the time and right in the middle of everything.

[Bigity]

Definitely run bugs it's absolutely worth your time.
• Universal brotherhood: the events leading up to the "incident"
• Burning Blood: Novel, haven't read it personally but it leads up to bug city
• Bug city: The aftermaths of the incident
• Queen Euphoria: Adventure about saving a sim starlet from insect shamans, Uhm... It's actually really good
• Double exposure: Adventure module about investigating a relief organisation in the barrens.

Personally I like YotC, each to his own. It's great for spike inspired tangents.

Burning Bright is the novel, and it's awesome just as a fiction novel, much less SR.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You could always just play SR3. I'm afraid you'll find that the SR4 rules aren't really comparatively streamlined, as the number of calculations you have to make remains approximately the same, and SR4 at its core involves rolling more dice more times. Most of SR3's complexity is introduced in either rarely-used systems (explosive power being proportional to the square root of the quantity) or in players deciding how to allocate their pool dice.

To clarify, in SR4 if you shoot at someone you perform the following series of tasks:
Add skill dice to attribute dice
Apply modifiers for situation, gear, etc (+2 dice from my smartlink, -1 die because I'm walking, -2 dice for range, etc) which are by and large the SR3 combat modifiers just applied to a dice pool instead of a target number
Roll dice, count hits
Target receives Reaction dice
Apply modifiers for cover, how many times dodged this turn, wounds, etc
Roll dice, count hits
Take base of weapon, apply net hits for modified damage
Calculate defense (armor minus AP plus body minus wounds etc)
Roll defense dice, count hits, subtract from damage
Apply damage

All of which takes no actual time at all, if your character sheet is done correctly. Dp's are already totaled for everything not situational, and you have situational adjustments even in SR3. *shrug*

Otherwise, the hacking system from SR4 is loads more math and rolling than the decking system from SR3 (ACIFS really isn't hard: target number for everything based on system, subtract program, voila), along with the complication of the hacker being able to hack anywhere/anytime/anything(? not clear in rules) which leads to plenty of "let me hack the guard's comlink" gameplay which pretty much mirrors the "decker phase, go get pizza" issue from SR3 games except it happens all the time and right in the middle of everything.

I disagree here as well... Hacking runs in tandem with other phases of game play. Yes, Hacking can be constant. It runs simultaneously. At least at our table it does. *shrug*

[Lionhearted]

Burning Bright is the novel, and it's awesome just as a fiction novel, much less SR.

Fixed it, thanks

[Epicedion]

I disagree here as well... Hacking runs in tandem with other phases of game play. Yes, Hacking can be constant. It runs simultaneously. At least at our table it does. *shrug*

Decking runs in tandem with other phases of game play, as well. Matrix Initiative in SR3 is explicitly defined as concurrent with meatspace Initiative (I think SR1 or SR2 had some indication that Matrix ran much, much faster and shouldn't be mixed). Both games retain the same issue of the decker/hacker dominating a particular pre-run phase of any game where the team is drinking coffee while he's snooping online, but unless your decker is working from the comfort of his living room and running fully as matrix support, he has to find a jackpoint in order to divide the action between meat and cyber mid-run. Hackers in SR4 live in sort of a candy store full of vulnerable systems they can attack at virtually any time, and there are obvious success benefits to the hacker disrupting every security node and comlink and drone controller they come across, which are everywhere all the time.

Beyond the logical implications of how awful Matrix security is in 2070, there's not even a pretense of security since if you can just get within a kilometer or two of a site you can attack their broadcasting nodes remotely. At least with the backbone RTG/LTG/PLTG structure of the 2050s and 60's there are increasing layers of security from the outside in. Every corporate site in 2070 has to be an island fortress.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Decking runs in tandem with other phases of game play, as well. Matrix Initiative in SR3 is explicitly defined as concurrent with meatspace Initiative (I think SR1 or SR2 had some indication that Matrix ran much, much faster and shouldn't be mixed). Both games retain the same issue of the decker/hacker dominating a particular pre-run phase of any game where the team is drinking coffee while he's snooping online, but unless your decker is working from the comfort of his living room and running fully as matrix support, he has to find a jackpoint in order to divide the action between meat and cyber mid-run. Hackers in SR4 live in sort of a candy store full of vulnerable systems they can attack at virtually any time, and there are obvious success benefits to the hacker disrupting every security node and comlink and drone controller they come across, which are everywhere all the time.

Beyond the logical implications of how awful Matrix security is in 2070, there's not even a pretense of security since if you can just get within a kilometer or two of a site you can attack their broadcasting nodes remotely. At least with the backbone RTG/LTG/PLTG structure of the 2050s and 60's there are increasing layers of security from the outside in. Every corporate site in 2070 has to be an island fortress.

And yet I have NEVER, EVER played in a SR2/SR3 game where Decking was successfully run Concurrently. Not Once. There is a reason people hated Decking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is not difficult to secure a system in SR4A, even with Wireless. We do it all the time. *shrug*

[Epicedion]

And yet I have NEVER, EVER played in a SR2/SR3 game where Decking was successfully run Concurrently. Not Once. There is a reason people hated Decking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm sorry no one you know managed to accomplish it. It's really rather simple.

It is not difficult to secure a system in SR4A, even with Wireless. We do it all the time. *shrug*

The best security is an off switch and a troll with a shotgun. Every piece of equipment in SR4 is a serious liability. The core rules imply that you can't even trust your 'ware and gear. Your electro-thermal-goggles with visual link and smartlink connected to your comlink with skinlink link link link link link? Hacked and broadcasting reruns of I Love Lucy.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The best security is an off switch and a troll with a shotgun. Every piece of equipment in SR4 is a serious liability. The core rules imply that you can't even trust your 'ware and gear. Your electro-thermal-goggles with visual link and smartlink connected to your comlink with skinlink link link link link link? Hacked and broadcasting reruns of I Love Lucy.

You have this completely and utterly wrong. It is trivially easy (and described in the Core, with additional info in Unwired, no less) to secure your gear, and by extension, Computer Networks. But since you apparently do not play 4th Edition, I can forgive that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That being said, How many people today get their identities stolen because they do not secure their wireless devices. The number is staggering.

[Epicedion]

You have this completely and utterly wrong. It is trivially easy (and described in the Core, with additional info in Unwired, no less) to secure your gear, and by extension, Computer Networks. But since you apparently do not play 4th Edition, I can forgive that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't play 4th edition anymore, but I used to. Since I couldn't expect the sourcebooks to be any better than the core book, I never spent any money on them. Once I closed out the 4th edition campaign I was running and shifted back to 3d edition, things were right as rain.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't play 4th edition anymore, but I used to. Since I couldn't expect the sourcebooks to be any better than the core book, I never spent any money on them. Once I closed out the 4th edition campaign I was running and shifted back to 3d edition, things were right as rain.

Heh... My complaint with SR3 was there were way to many damned subsystems. Not that I couldn't cope, I just hated them. And when every TN for a firefight was 9+, it just got frustrating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Heh... My complaint with SR3 was there were way to many damned subsystems. Not that I couldn't cope, I just hated them. And when every TN for a firefight was 9+, it just got frustrating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's more of a style thing. People in SR3 tend to get shot less often, but take more damage from it, which is more realistic. SR4 tends to damage people more incrementally and more often, barring overkill weaponry. I tend to describe SR3 as somewhat more simulationist, while SR4 is more action-movie.

[Ryu]

Hi guys/gals.    I have taken about a 10+ year break from RPG's.  I love the SR universe and have played some of 1st and 2nd but mostly in 3rd edition.   I am planning to run an SR campaign and did not realize that the SR universe had changed so dramatically.  I have ordered the SR4A book because everyone seams to agree that the rules are the most streamlined.  What I have always loved about the SR universe is the GRITTY, CYBERPUNK themes.  My research on the forums has discovered that SR4 apparently deviates greatly from this and moves more toward Transhumanism.  Im sure this is still fun and great but not what I had in mind.  I don't mind playing in this new imagining of the SR universe but I would like to have the experience of getting there from the beginning, instead of skipping to the last book in a Saga of novels and trying to piece together the importance and gravity of the events that are unfolding, why/how they came about.  Its one thing to watch Return of the Jedi,  Its an entirely different experience if you have seen A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back before viewing it. 

The "gritty" and "cyberpunk" terms as I understand them have very little to do with rules. If you don´t embrace Transhumanism, you are still forced to give your humanity up in order to stay competitive. Ware is more affordable once you generate a five-figure yearly savings. Joe Average won´t, but nearly all professionals in the security field will, devaluating the player advantage. It could actually be quite interesting to see the changes brought by a massive drop in augmentation prices.


Setting up combat balance: You´ll indeed see the many hits with few damage if you make pistols + heavy armor the standard, and don´t use the cover/lighting/others situational mods. One might prefer that way because it gives players time to retreat if things go wrong. SR4 can be very deadly for people with Body 4 + Armor 8 on the other hand - soaking an average of 4 boxes means having to avoid any hits. A hobo with a shotgun can get you dead.

[nezumi]

The "gritty" and "cyberpunk" terms as I understand them have very little to do with rules.

I could not disagree more.

A game where you have 100 hit points and a handgun does 1d6 damage is not 'gritty'.

[Ryu]

I could not disagree more.

A game where you have 100 hit points and a handgun does 1d6 damage is not 'gritty'.

I have to admit I was only thinking in terms of SR2-4. You are correct, more so since balance-by-hitpoints does not really do it for me anymore. ED has high magic to at least explain it, but attrition warfare is less fun than decisive action.

[Lionhearted]

Even a hitpoint system can be gritty when you... uh, "optimize".
Did I ever tell you about the time we killed an adult dragon in the surprise action?

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

I think the downward spiral of wound modifiers also adds to the gritty feel.

[Epicedion]

I think the downward spiral of wound modifiers also adds to the gritty feel.

Wound modifiers would have to be significant to really matter. Losing a couple dice usually isn't a huge hindrance.

[Lionhearted]

It is when you account for low DP or other modifiers.

Bob the street samurai with absurd amounts to shoot with isn't going the feel that -2 wound modifier much, even in heavy rain at long range.

Terry the technomancer would be forced to do a longshot test to even hope to able to hit anything although.

Or to extrapolate the issue
Frank the hacker is not trained in athletics, he got fairly average agility and str though (3 in both) with a -2 wound modifier, he's completely unable to jump, climb or sprint.

[nezumi]

Wound modifiers would have to be significant to really matter. Losing a couple dice usually isn't a huge hindrance.

Indeed. But wound modifiers in SR1-3 made a huge difference. A light wound results in your TN of 5 being twice as difficult.