[X] My Assistant

[hermit]

I downplayed it, and had her pretty much out of it by the time they got to the door. But Iw as interested to see what they'd do about the girl - leave her, "give ehr mercy" (read: a bullet to the head), rescue her, or what. And, of course, why they chose whatever they did. (They went with saving her, 'cause, you know, "working with the ADA" and all that).

I played it fully, becaus the player who went in enjoys such things every once in a while. She had the same choice - leave the girl or mercy-kill - decided to kill everyone else, and patch her back up. After some expensive therapy/total mindwipe by an awakened psychiatrist NPC, she now attends a Horizon school and hopes to score a corp SIN! Buw, again, I knew my players and knew they can take this and wouldn't be freaked out. Different players, I'd act differently.

[Lionhearted]

I'd never even consider that scenario, it pushes all the buttons for me personally...

[_Pax._]

I was probably more uncomfortable with that scene, than my players were, TBH.

[hermit]

To each their own. I can deal with it (though, to be honest, not too often), and the player begged me to run something ... far more drastic ... once. Wouldn't run it with al plars I know, and would have expected a small heads up about a difficult topic in the otherwise stellarly accessible adventure, but nobody's perfect I guess.

[CanRay]

I've thrown some major things at my groups over the years to make them think and deal with socially awkward situations. So far, I've only had one negative response, and it was more shock than anything else.

It was when I was describing a Airship Naval Battle in a game of Airship Pirates. I don't hold back on the violence, instead I use it as paint for my brush of drama and interplay.

My humor aside, I'm a very, very dark person.

[hermit]

You can do very dark stuff without ever resorting to sexual violance, which in my opinon is pretty cheap and over-used anyway. Poverty and disease can be just as disturbing, just to name examples. And those need to be used carefuly too; someone who's taking care of his mother dying of terminal cancer might not respond any better to this than victims of sexual violence to rape.

[StealthSigma]

My humor aside, I'm a very, very dark person.

Your humor is on the dark side.

[All4BigGuns]

This thread is pretty much exactly why I advocate FULL DISCLOSURE of everything related to a game that isn't strictly necessary to remain hidden for the storyline of the campaign (and if doing crap like the OPs GM did is strictly necessary to remain hidden, the game needs to be rethought).

[_Pax._]

This thread is pretty much exactly why I advocate FULL DISCLOSURE of everything related to a game that isn't strictly necessary to remain hidden for the storyline of the campaign (and if doing crap like the OPs GM did is strictly necessary to remain hidden, the game needs to be rethought).

Another point on which you and I are in full, 110% agreement, All4.

I generally like to make a statement, up front, in any game I run, as to the content and theme(s). Even if that statement is just to reference an MPAA rating (my default is PG-13), and suggest everyone modulate their narratives and at-table language towards that benchmark.

[All4BigGuns]

Another point on which you and I are in full, 110% agreement, All4.

*blinks* Okay everyone, get to your fallout bunkers...the End is Nigh. Pax and I are agreeing on something...

[Umidori]

I've never really had a problem running content my players couldn't handle, but I've had players with characters that couldn't handle some of it. Had a character with the Pacifist quality get badly disturbed when an NPC ally who was secretly a vampire used their fangs to tear the throat out of an attacker.

That said, if I was planning on doing anything more disturbing than your typical blood and gore in combat, I'd definitely forewarn my players.

~Umi

[DMiller]

I second the idea that I would have no problems playing in this game, with or without rationale as to why it has happened. Our games run from very light-hearted to more dark than I have seen anyone describe here. Of course our group is quite mature (everyone is 30+, and soon the majority will be 40+). We all have an immense amount of experience in role playing. I think my only question to the GM from the OP would have been “Is this going somewhere in a larger plot?” and if the answer was yes, I’ve have run with it.

The key to these sorts of situations is to only describe enough to get the imagination moving and let the players minds fill in the blanks. The characters can be as freaked out as possible, but a mature group can separate character from player squick. In my own experience I have never really been squicked out, perhaps I have an iron constitution. A good description of a scene can give me the chills, but that’s about as far as it goes. Just to provide a little example our current game has two unique characters in it, a GM created Vampire type and our only spell caster follows a free Master Shedim. We are playing in a very dark world.

As a side note, I poked out my “mind’s eye” many, many years ago. With friends like mine that was needed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-D

[Glyph]

I'm not a fan of railroading, and I think this GM made some missteps. But as someone pointed out, the existing social skill rules can be for more detrimental to player agency. Have your character cringe and do what some sneering suit says, or sleep with an obnoxious scumbag, or accept a blatant fabrication that a credulous five-year old would find suspicious - all because someone rolled a big, bloated pool of social skill dice.

[DamHawke]

Depending on the character my response could range anywhere from repentant horror at my own actions to guilty pleasure. Either way the player has got to deal with the consequences and also I imagine find out what's happened to them. This is the challenging bit.

It provides an avenue for character development/RP yes I agree. But the fashion in which it could have been applied could have been better.

What about th face? That's the most bothersome alteration to me.

Well, till he gives me an extremely good reason (in game or OOC) as to why it was even necessary to curse my character's nether regions, I shall continue to be a pest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This thread is pretty much exactly why I advocate FULL DISCLOSURE of everything related to a game that isn't strictly necessary to remain hidden for the storyline of the campaign (and if doing crap like the OPs GM did is strictly necessary to remain hidden, the game needs to be rethought).

Like some of the other posters have mentioned, absolute full disclosure spoils the story a bit BUT I think the party would have appreciated a warning label; our games prior to this particular incident were pretty Mirror Shades, then suddenly, this.

[Wounded Ronin]

My question is this: Why play Shadowrun if you're going to remove magic*? Magic is a part of the Shadowrun universe.



* == No, adepts don't count. They're just street sammies that don't need (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for their augmentation

I haven't played SR in years but me and my friends used to run one off campaigns in modern times or 1800s to use the firearms combat system. We removed magic for those and it was OK.

[Wounded Ronin]

Whether or not horror is exploitative or not has no bearing on whether it is horrific. Most media must exploit those responses to generate an effect. Horror is not a positive genre and it does not subject the person observing it to positive emotional reactions. Horror is something most people actively avoid because of those negative emotional responses unless they can experience it in a controlled environment. That's why people creating horror have to be creative and try to pull people out of that comfort zone. Fail to do so and the audience is not subjected to true horror. It can be done through multiple manners. It can be done through violence. It can be done through sex. It can be done through mind-screwing the viewer. It can be done through suspense. Most importantly, it can be done by shattering preconceived notions that the viewer has about how the world works. That last one is one of the most powerful when combined with the other elements of horror. That is one that ends up causing people to walk out of a theater or shut the movie off. That one is so damn powerful that many people can't simply cope with it and the only way is to do so is to avoid it. That is the one and only element of control they have over that horror. Horror is not nice. Horror is not friendly. Horror is the dirty, disgusting, ugly truth about humanity and that is what makes it so.

The film I referenced is heavily predicated on presentation. Exploitation is certainly not a factor either. The reverse timeline narrative is required in order to transform it from simple gratuitous violence into a genuine horror. It wasn't the gratuitous violence that made it horrific. It wasn't the rape that was horrific. It wasn't even finding out that the rape victim was pregnant that made it horrific. Those only served to explain why the atrocities in earlier scenes were committed. It was the fact that a bystander who happened upon the rape did nothing and ran away. That bystander did what most people would do. That was disgusting. That was revolting. That was horrific. That bystander left the victim to be subjected to what she experienced. That bystander's inaction is what permitted the previous scenes actions to occur. Irreversible challenged peoples preconceived notions of the helpful bystander.

There's another film like Irreversible that came out in 2012 called Compliance which made people so entirely uncomfortable because they didn't think it could ever happen despite the fact that the movie is based on true events. We humans like to turn a blind eye to the word around us.

Educational post...

[StealthSigma]

The key to these sorts of situations is to only describe enough to get the imagination moving and let the players minds fill in the blanks. The characters can be as freaked out as possible, but a mature group can separate character from player squick. In my own experience I have never really been squicked out, perhaps I have an iron constitution. A good description of a scene can give me the chills, but that’s about as far as it goes. Just to provide a little example our current game has two unique characters in it, a GM created Vampire type and our only spell caster follows a free Master Shedim. We are playing in a very dark world.

A lot of people can have difficulty dividing character responses from player responses. What I've noticed is that a lot of people are prone to letting the world that they live and the experiences from it that have formulated their opinions on matter basically define what constitutes squick or horror for a character that lives in a world that barely resembles the one we live in. For example, why would the sight of someone's exposed spine during a surgery affect characters in Shadowrun? Many of these characters undergo very similar surgeries to get their augmentations. They are engaged in a career where they often get paid to kill people. Indignation over an unwilling participant? Sure. Repulsive thoughts. Unlikely. Shadowrunners are a hardened an resilient lot and a lot of what we would consider horrific shouldn't phase them.

As a side note, I poked out my “mind’s eye” many, many years ago. With friends like mine that was needed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I poked mine out when I took a college course dedicated to studying horror. It was necessary. The professor had no qualms about pushing the students to the limit of their sanity. You and I would probably agree that there's not much reason to restore it if it were even possible.
--

I haven't played SR in years but me and my friends used to run one off campaigns in modern times or 1800s to use the firearms combat system. We removed magic for those and it was OK.

Shadowrun is both a campaign setting and a ruleset. People seem to forget that. The ruleset is not written with interdependence that requires magic or technomancy to be be present and it stands well with elements removed. In fact, it is my opinion that the Shadowrun system works a lot better once you remove magic. When you do that, you permit yourself to free up other areas from restrictions and chains that are put in because of magic.

[hermit]

They are engaged in a career where they often get paid to kill people. Indignation over an unwilling participant? Sure. Repulsive thoughts. Unlikely.

I'm pretty sure some of the resident US troops could provide a valuable perspective here. If not: PTSD. Such sights can be worse for those with lots of horrible experiences than for average people (like vets freaking from the smell of a bbq). What doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Might be a good idea to keep this in mind, too.

[Faelan]

I'm pretty sure some of the resident US troops could provide a valuable perspective here. If not: PTSD. Such sights can be worse for those with lots of horrible experiences than for average people (like vets freaking from the smell of a bbq). What doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Might be a good idea to keep this in mind, too.

PTSD is a vicious little animal because in many cases you don't even realize you have. The way you think and act seem completely normal to you, in fact they are your new normal, the problem is others may think you are a borderline sociopath. My journey into ruthless violence as a lifestyle, and return to a life where I accept its potential necessity but it is not my default setting has taken me years to get to. Sure an open body might not squick me out, the helpless human whose will is about to be taken away would have and still would, but where as my reaction now would be business like, my reaction then would have been more inclined to keeping some alive for a show and tell later. You never really get over it, and none of it is ever really acceptable you just find ways to justify it to yourself so you can get up the next day.

[StealthSigma]

I'm pretty sure some of the resident US troops could provide a valuable perspective here. If not: PTSD. Such sights can be worse for those with lots of horrible experiences than for average people (like vets freaking from the smell of a bbq). What doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Might be a good idea to keep this in mind, too.

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of PTSD. The statistics for it are not as robust as I would like and there's so much about it we don't understand. Is it more common among Army or marines? What's the prevalence among those in special forces compared to those who aren't? Studies do show that the rate is much lower (around half) for Iraq-UK veterans compares to Iraq-US veterans. Why is that? What's the rate of PTSD among those who entered the service to fund college education against those who did not have that as a primary motivation for serving. Also remember that the armed forces are a cross-section of a wide swath of individuals who range from the run of the mill through the exceptional. At the very least, most shadowrunners are exceptional in their own right.

It's also a mostly academic discussion anyway because Shadowrun includes a system that shows that a character is more or less susceptible to PTSD through the use of negative qualities.

[hermit]

You brilliantly evaded my point because it doesn't fit into your Tarantino for everybody narrative. Awesome.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm pretty sure some of the resident US troops could provide a valuable perspective here. If not: PTSD. Such sights can be worse for those with lots of horrible experiences than for average people (like vets freaking from the smell of a bbq). What doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Might be a good idea to keep this in mind, too.

I can say (personal Experience) that I think that the dreams/nightmares will always be there. No matter how well adjusted/hardened you think you are. Trick is to accept that. If you can do that, you can make it. As Faelan indicated, it takes time to detune your violence impulse. I still have mine, and it has been 22 years since I got out of the Corps. I tend to make people uncomfortable if they do not know me, becasue of HOW I move, act and react to stimuli, most of which (that training) is buried so deep in my subconscious that I still do not realize I am performing those actions by rote, even to this day.

[Faelan]

I can say (personal Experience) that I think that the dreams/nightmares will always be there. No matter how well adjusted/hardened you think you are. Trick is to accept that. If you can do that, you can make it. As Faelan indicated, it takes time to detune your violence impulse. I still have mine, and it has been 22 years since I got out of the Corps. I tend to make people uncomfortable if they do not know me, becasue of HOW I move, act and react to stimuli, most of which (that training) is buried so deep in my subconscious that I still do not realize I am performing those actions by rote, even to this day.

QFT. Same problem here, I mean it ain't all bad, people do tend to leave myself and my wife alone in public unless we make a habit of frequenting the same place. Eventually they realize I will not exterminate them for looking in our direction. My violence impulse is back in its detached clinical reality I only let it out on the heavy bag.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah... been meaning to get me a heavy bag. May eventually do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

You brilliantly evaded my point because it doesn't fit into your Tarantino for everybody narrative. Awesome.

You brought up PTSD. It's something often happens after a specific high stress and high anxiety situation or over a sustained exposure. Though singular events usually only cause short term PTSD rather than long term. Shadowrunners, in general, tend to track better with the traits and features that provide protection against PTSD and they lack many of the situational effects that lead soldiers to PTSD of which most notably is a lack of control over the situation which probably explains why officers suffer it less than the enlisted. However, that's all hardly relevant since PTSD would be, for the purpose of an RPG, an effect that would be expressed through mechanical effects. Most of the specific symptoms of PTSD can be expressed through negative qualities.

So either the character is already suffering from the stress and anxiety of being exposed to these horrific situations (which are subjective) and would have negative qualities that reflect this. If its determined that they should suffer from it, then they receive the Negative quality, which isn't any different than what happened in this case aside from the fact that the incidence of it was 100% rather than some lesser amount.

Most of the people in this thread have argued for a false dichotomy. That their way is the right way. That you must fully disclose your story. That you must use the horror presented in the setting already. That you can't use your own horrific situations for the characters. They completely deny any alternative. What you have done is confused what I have done. I am not arguing that it should be "Tarantino for everyone". I'm arguing that the most potent horror and fear will come from taking control out of the characters' hands.