[X] My Assistant

[Lionhearted]

What happens when they say no?
I'd want to pull out from the corrupt a wish foundation pretty quickly.
There's many, many traits that's been attributed to the devil... Including weird things like shaking hand on the left, inexplicably turning writing into blood, casting no shadow or a shadow opposite to the sun or a shadow in his true form or a shadow that acts on its own accord, Same goes for reflections in a mirror.
Subtle elements being wrong is often very unnerving

[hermit]

What happens when they say no?

I wonder about that too. Because only one of my chracters would willingly work for the Johnson again after the first run. Not on a matter of ethics, but because he just made them assassinate a Vor capo, without informing them of his plan.

[Umidori]

Simple. He'd start appearing suddenly in unlikely places, with stacks of green paper in one hand and blackmail in the other.

Go to meet a different Johnson at a club, only to find DocWagon out front when you arrive, trying to pry a screaming driver out of his crumpled, flaming vehicle in a three car pile-up. Three guesses as to who the unlucky burn victim is. And standing on the corner is Mr. Bell, smoking a cigarette, smirking. "Strange seeing you here! Hot night on the town? Here to blow off some steam? Pity about that car wreck over there, though, total downer, I couldn't possibly enjoy the clubs after seeing something like that - terrible sights have a way of burning themselves into your memory. Know what I mean?" Naturally he'd never take his eyes off the wreck, quietly enjoying every second of it. "Do you think they'll get him out in time? Or do you think maybe the fuel tank will..." at which point, naturally, it does, taking out a paramedic or two with it.

Every new meeting he'd be as charming and sly as if it was the first time he'd met you, offering simple jobs and good money. If the Runners say no, he plies them harder, acts like their best pal in the whole world. If they tell him to fuck off, he gets politely sinister. If they threaten force, he'll back off and slip away undetered, coming back later on, cornering them in pairs or alone, finding them in back alleys and noodle-shops, and generally just slipping into and out of their daily lives like a ghost. If he has to, he'll start leaving notes on their apartment doors, or under their pillows in their secret boltholes. If torching one of the player's vehicles will get them to do what he wants, he's happy to. And when the runners try to do legwork, all they get are conflicting dead ends.

Ultimately, though, he's a coward. He's all smoke and mirrors, fear and manipulation. He wins when his playthings submit to him, but if they openly defy him, he's not nearly so powerful. Willpower is the key. He may be able to suddenly step out of almost any shadow, or even be able to dodge bullets from time to time, but if backed into a corner and forced to fight head on, he's gonna be in a very bad way.

~Umi

[Grinder]

As I like your idea, your presentation of Mr. J. as Mary Sue par excellence would turn me off as a player.

[Umidori]

As I like your idea, your presentation of Mr. J. as Mary Sue par excellence would turn me off as a player.

You appear to not actually know what "Mary Sue" means....

I'd almost feel like you were trying to be insulting somehow if your comment wasn't so head-scratchingly baffling.

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

The more reason to kill him... Bleed Mary Sue, bleed!

[Dakka Fiend]

Seemingly all-powerful Johnson who needs runners to buy him some doughnuts? I'd tell the GM to go back to junior high.

[Lionhearted]

A Mary Sue Is an authors wet dream project, it's a powerful character without hardships or setbacks
Oh... TVtropes link, exercise caution

[Umidori]

You're all missing the point, entirely.

Do none of you have any conception of the trope of dealing with the devil? Because that's exactly his purpose and nature.

He's not an all-powerful being pulled out of my ass so he can hire the runners just because they're the main characters, and I'm pretty fucking insulted that people would think I'd come up with this guy just to power-trip while godmodding an over the top character just for shits and giggles.

No, there is a thematic point and purpose to his powers, as well as certain limitations. He's not just some schmuck that has superpowers for no reason. He's a paranormal being that toys with people for his own entertainment. He's the embodiment of the devil's bargain. He's not corportate, he's not private, he's not even human. He's just out to tempt people, and to twist people, and to corrupt people. Call him a variety of Twisted Spirit. Call him a Lesser Horror. Who cares.

His purpose is to engage the team of runners in a new and different sort of way - to be an enemy that surprises them, that doesn't play by the "rules", that isn't defeated in the usual ways and with the usual tools. He's supposed to provide a different sort of challange, a different sort of experience, wherein the runners have to deviate from all their comfortable and familiar problem solving strategies. His story arc would be more like a chapter out of a Cthulhu story than your typical "get paid to steal stuff and shoot people" run. The runners aren't fighting something tangible like a corporation or a dragon, they're fighting the embodiment of their own human weaknesses, the temptations of greed and cruelty, and the cowardice of succumbing to fear and the will of others. In short, he's a psychological threat, not a physical one.

Like I said, he's not "The Devil" - he's just "a" devil. He has a slew of powers usually associated with traditional depictions of demons and the like. The point of including him is to give the runners a side-arc in the larger story where themes of the paranormal and humanity's struggles with its own capacity for good and evil get to be played out in a creepy, paranoia-inducing way. He's there to tempt, to corrupt, to twist, to pervert, to frighten, to manipulate, and yes, even to ultimately be defeated. But even more importantly he's there to give my players an experience I honestly think they will find atmospheric, interesting, unnerving, and fun. I'm sorry that sounds so terrible to some of you. I guess our table is not Black Trenchcoat enough for you guys.

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

Didn't say I agreed with the assessment, merely explained it

[Umidori]

Ah, pardon then. You're excused from my righteous indignant literary wrath. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Grinder]

I got the dealing with the devil-angle, but the presentation of the devil aka Mr. J. in your example is nothing I would enjoy as a player.

[Dakka Fiend]

To me that's not the devil. He's supposed to be smart, that's just an asshole begging to be shot (, exploded, stun-bolted, FABed, hit with a kitchen sink, ...) on sight until he stops coming back.

[hermit]

I fully agree with Grinder. I'd not enjoy this as a player either.

[Faelan]

You're all missing the point, entirely.

Do none of you have any conception of the trope of dealing with the devil? Because that's exactly his purpose and nature.

Just because no one agreed with the "brilliance" of your presentation, is no excuse for you to essentially call them stupid, or ignorant. I read it entirely as they read and fully understood exactly what you were attempting and found it lacking. In their eyes it fell short. It falls short in my eyes entirely because of post #203, which is practically a definition of Mary Sue on its own.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah, pardon then. You're excused from my righteous indignant literary wrath. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

WHile I understand what you are doing, why would the Mr. J (Devil) stick around once he was turned down? After all , there are Billions of other people in the world to tempt. Why waste time once they were on to him?

[ZeroPoint]

This is not a mary sue, this is a BBEG, which has its own pitfalls.

But your missing out on his purpose. His purpose is to make an interesting challenge to the players and to make them feel like they may not be in complete control of the situation. Just like most of the "bosses" of Michael Weston in Burn Notice. He knows they are slimy guys and wants to turn on them but can't. And they are always so "nice" in person.

The reason you are all perceiving him as a mary sue is because you know his entire story, and you know that he will have a contingency for every situation. The players will not know that, and to them at first he'll just be another johnson with some interesting features. As they get sucked further into the story they'll start to see that he's not just another johnson, but by then it will be more difficult for them to get rid of the guy.

The problem with that sort of character is when you get the one player that after the first opportunity to learn that this guy isn't a guy to be dealing with, fills his brainpan with bullets, without thinking about the consequences of that action. Or you think you have him with the perfect escape plan, and then a player does something you don't expect and they catch him and kill him. Those are the times to prepare the hand of god.

[Lionhearted]

hit with a kitchen sink,

What do you reckon the DV of a kitchen sink is?

[Dakka Fiend]

What do you reckon the DV of a kitchen sink is?

Do you mean one of them newfangled tiny plastic ones or an honest to $Deity cast-iron kitchen sink you could take a bath in?

[Lionhearted]

Your run off the mill stainless steel type

[Dakka Fiend]

Hmm, two-handed blunt weapon, weighing more than a staff, but shorter; I'd probably wing it as:
Reach: 1
DV: (STR/2 + 3)
AP: You just got hit with a frigging kitchen sink! What's wrong with you?!
Seriously incurring a penalty for not being intended to be used as a weapon, though.

Damn, now I need to stat me a Troll dual-wielding those babies.

[CanRay]

A Mary Sue Is an authors wet dream project, it's a powerful character without hardships or setbacks
Oh... TVtropes link, exercise caution

So... Most of my original characters. Gotcha.

[Umidori]

But your missing out on his purpose. His purpose is to make an interesting challenge to the players and to make them feel like they may not be in complete control of the situation. Just like most of the "bosses" of Michael Weston in Burn Notice. He knows they are slimy guys and wants to turn on them but can't. And they are always so "nice" in person.

Couldn't have put it better myself. The difference is that instead of being secret government agents or psychopathic serial bombers, this guy is a magical threat.

~Umi

[hermit]

So... Most of my original characters. Gotcha.

I can't think fo any OC of yours who didn't suffer a life made of setbacks, actually.

Couldn't have put it better myself. The difference is that instead of being secret government agents or psychopathic serial bombers, this guy is a magical threat.

And that's the crucial difference. Because that takes away any need for you to keep him plausible; it's magic after all. Michael Westin's opponents may seem insurmountable to him, but that's because of reasons, not because they magically appear out of the closet in his bedroom and inform him they've just killed their lover and will kill their mistress too if they don't go on your crap adventures, ebcause your dude just magically knows things because magic. That may not be how you'd run this, btu that's how it came across in #203.

There's a world of difference between this and Michael Westin's agency enemies.

[Umidori]

Okay, maybe I need to explain the mechanics of the magic then. I'd have him use only existing spells. Ignite, Influence, etc. He's just got a rather high initiation and magic score, so he can cast these spells at a very powerful level, and he can mask them with his metamagics. More believable now?

Furthermore, he'd have a gaes, or code of conduct. He'd have to abide by all the classic restrictions imposed on his brand of evil. He'd be allergic to crosses, to silver, et cetera. He couldn't enter holy ground. He couldn't attack someone directly, or enter a home uninvited (so he could leave a note on a door, but would have to be "invited" into a home to put one under a pillow (of course, he could always Influence or Compel a maintenance guy or someone to let him in there). He couldn't break a contract, or a promise once made. And while his magic is powerful, he does still have to cast it and it can still be resisted, and it does require line of sight and all that jazz. He'd still have to resist drain, for example.

I don't see why handwaving any of this would change anything, though. Why can he do X? Because he's a paranormal being who can do Y magically. Why can Burn Notice enemy do X? Because they're a government operative who conveniently has Y leverage.

~Umi