[X] My Assistant

[Faelan]

I don't see why handwaving any of this would change anything, though. Why can he do X? Because he's a paranormal being who can do Y magically. Why can Burn Notice enemy do X? Because they're a government operative who conveniently has Y leverage.

You can handwave it, except you can then expect the immersion of the players to be blown. You can expect in my experience at least one player to call you on the carpet, and when you handwave you have nothing to stand on other than "I felt like messing with you, and I was too lazy to figure out an interesting way to do it." That is what post #203 and your last post sound like. "I am too lazy to come up with a real credible magical threat, so I will just handwave it and make it know shit a Great Dragon might know, but probably would not because the runners are too inconsequential to garner the attention...of such a potent magic user." It just does not work on any level other than laziness or just looking to mess with your players for the sake of messing with them.

You ask why Burn Notice gets away with? The answer is pretty obvious if you think about it. Burn Notice is not a Mirrorshades, or a Pink Mohawk, it is a mix of the two with a hard dose of satire, self parody, breaking the 4th wall, and pure comedy. Burn Notice is not meant to be taken as a serious depiction of spies, it is simply meant to be entertaining. While I will forgive Burn Notice for making me laugh, I sure would not forgive any GM if they ran the Guy you describe in post #203. It would make me laugh in a sad way, because if I wanted a game of comedy I would have been playing Toon.

[Lionhearted]

He'd be allergic to crosses, to silver, et cetera. He couldn't enter holy ground. or enter a home uninvited

Isn't that more characteristic of vampires?

[hermit]

Okay, maybe I need to explain the mechanics of the magic then. I'd have him use only existing spells. Ignite, Influence, etc. He's just got a rather high initiation and magic score, so he can cast these spells at a very powerful level, and he can mask them with his metamagics. More believable now?

Then please explain how he accomplishes anything described in posts #200 and #203?

Go to meet a different Johnson at a club, only to find DocWagon out front when you arrive, trying to pry a screaming driver out of his crumpled, flaming vehicle in a three car pile-up. Three guesses as to who the unlucky burn victim is. - How does he know?

If they threaten force, he'll back off and slip away undetered, coming back later on, cornering them in pairs or alone, finding them in back alleys and noodle-shops, and generally just slipping into and out of their daily lives like a ghost. If he has to, he'll start leaving notes on their apartment doors, or under their pillows in their secret boltholes. - Again, how does he know? How does he get there? Why does he have access to any secret the PCs have surely treid to keep secret?

Your employer seems to know things no one else does, or he can predict events with startling accuracy. - How?

Naturally he has to slip away at the final moment, beaten and weakened but still out there, a knife in the shadows, waiting for the right time to strike once more... - So he IS invincible by power of GM fiat after all?

And while his magic is powerful, he does still have to cast it and it can still be resisted, and it does require line of sight and all that jazz. He'd still have to resist drain, for example. - Except for when he doesn't, because he has access to all metagaming knowledge the GM has? See above. It's not me wondering whether he has actual stats in combat, it's whether he acts as a plausible agent inside the gaming world or as a metagaming 'cheat' agent the GM uses against the players because it's what's needed to railroad the players into the story of his choice?

I don't see why handwaving any of this would change anything, though. Why can he do X? Because he's a paranormal being who can do Y magically. - Because, while a government agency is a thing that, theoretically, you can confront and deal with (as Michael Westin, in the end, does). Magic, especially GM fiat type magic like this, is intangible and cannot be confronted, leaving the players feel walked over by an invincible NPC who always is a step ahead of them because the GM is metagaming to 'beat' them at Shadowrun. That is nothing I, as a player, would find very enjoyable.

[DamHawke]

Plus, Hawke said the GM was new to the GMing business. Probably indeed less trying to be a jerk and more being a noob. And given how Hawke doesn't update on the situation, I think they found a satisfactory solution. So maybe just leave it be.

I have not updated recently because our game has been put on hiatus for the time being.

We have had that sit down and talk with our GM, and he apologized for going a bit too far. However he isn't going to change the story plot or direction until we are done with this arc, and he says its for good reason (plus the table has agreed to roll with it after all) because he has something really massive planned.

He does like Bishop's suggestion on the composure tests all the way back at post #80, so he's likely going to use that from here on out.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ehhh..... I don't know. I've read through it and all the sexual stuff put on the characters all at once including 'impregnating' the only female character, turning one into a rape beast and making him attack women etc... doesn't seem like "A great awesome deep storyline' to me. Seems kinda like a hormonal 14 year old that's discovered girls and has no idea how to approach them so is manipulating the players in the game to get his jollies. Now.. I'm not saying the GM is sitting there going "Muahahah. I can't get laid so I'll work out my sexual frustrations through the game!!" He very much might not be aware of it. But the "oh.. You fall asleep and wake up pregnant or a rapist. No saving throw!" type thing would sour me instantly. Trying to explain it away after the fact (( If he's a new GM he wasn't playing 20 steps ahead. )) doesn't really change it.

If he's been pulled aside and told that the players are weirded out and uncomfortable and comes back with "However he isn't going to change the story plot or direction untill we're done with this arc" Then he doesn't care. He's getting his jollies and the group can help him do so till he's done. The group seems to be invested at least a few weeks sessions now. So they're in a crappy place. "Kick the Sex crazed GM, and start new, wasting these weeks and the char's we made, or ... "*Groan* Well this is frakin' stupid but we're a couple weeks in, hope it is done soon and we can put this in the rear view and get to something that's not the GM living vicariously through my poor character, I don't want to waste the weeks we've already put into this crap, if it's almost done."

I'd thank the guy for trying and let someone else in the group be GM for a while. If he wanted to play a character in the group. cool deal, but no. I wouldn't let a GM get his rocks off with my char, turn him into a rapist or the like and be told "Ok I hear you're upset and don't like this and the group is weirded out but I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing" If I had to scrap the character and reroll it'd be annoying, or the group could 'Rewind' to pre 'sexual fantasy sleep thing', or something.

This doesn't mean my char's have to be 100% awesome all the time, my char's have been slammed with horrible things they have to deal with, overcome or cirumvent but I've read through 10 pages of this stuff with multiple posts from DamHawke, and yeah.. this is not the sort of thing me or my group would be down for. This started off as a pretty juvenile screw job that the guy's trying to roll out as a big plan he's had from the start. Depending on peoples groups they might like that sort of thing, but the posts here have indicated they don't really.

[All4BigGuns]

Ehhh..... I don't know. I've read through it and all the sexual stuff put on the characters all at once including 'impregnating' the only female character, turning one into a rape beast and making him attack women etc... doesn't seem like "A great awesome deep storyline' to me. Seems kinda like a hormonal 14 year old that's discovered girls and has no idea how to approach them so is manipulating the players in the game to get his jollies. Now.. I'm not saying the GM is sitting there going "Muahahah. I can't get laid so I'll work out my sexual frustrations through the game!!" He very much might not be aware of it. But the "oh.. You fall asleep and wake up pregnant or a rapist. No saving throw!" type thing would sour me instantly. Trying to explain it away after the fact (( If he's a new GM he wasn't playing 20 steps ahead. )) doesn't really change it.

If he's been pulled aside and told that the players are weirded out and uncomfortable and comes back with "However he isn't going to change the story plot or direction untill we're done with this arc" Then he doesn't care. He's getting his jollies and the group can help him do so till he's done. The group seems to be invested at least a few weeks sessions now. So they're in a crappy place. "Kick the Sex crazed GM, and start new, wasting these weeks and the char's we made, or ... "*Groan* Well this is frakin' stupid but we're a couple weeks in, hope it is done soon and we can put this in the rear view and get to something that's not the GM living vicariously through my poor character, I don't want to waste the weeks we've already put into this crap, if it's almost done."

I'd thank the guy for trying and let someone else in the group be GM for a while. If he wanted to play a character in the group. cool deal, but no. I wouldn't let a GM get his rocks off with my char, turn him into a rapist or the like and be told "Ok I hear you're upset and don't like this and the group is weirded out but I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing" If I had to scrap the character and reroll it'd be annoying, or the group could 'Rewind' to pre 'sexual fantasy sleep thing', or something.

This doesn't mean my char's have to be 100% awesome all the time, my char's have been slammed with horrible things they have to deal with, overcome or cirumvent but I've read through 10 pages of this stuff with multiple posts from DamHawke, and yeah.. this is not the sort of thing me or my group would be down for. This started off as a pretty juvenile screw job that the guy's trying to roll out as a big plan he's had from the start. Depending on peoples groups they might like that sort of thing, but the posts here have indicated they don't really.

Agreed. It does seem to me as well like he's trying to pull the old "But...but this will be SO COOL later! So, come on, let me keep screwing your characters over."

[Lionhearted]

Aaaand here comes the pitchforks again, you've made your opinion clear. No need to hammer it in.

[Umidori]

Yeah, I'm done. I'm clearly not explaining it to my critics very well, and they're clearly biased to dislike it because it doesn't match how they run things at their tables, and they've already made up their minds about what they think it is I'm doing and why, and it's just not worth the headache.

My players will love it. I'll enjoy GMing it. What else matters, I guess? Some of the forums can just dismiss it as shit, it really shouldn't matter to me, so I'm gonna force myself not to let it bug me. *shrug*

~Umi

[Lionhearted]

Most criticism got something worthwhile you can take from it, while you might disagree with it... It's worth to sit down and ponder 'why' someone would perceive it that way.
It helps to reread comments that seem confrontational in a calm and friendly voice, or with the narration of Christopher Walken.
(Why? Have you ever heard him read three little pigs? that's why)

Also I was prodding at Bigguns crusade against the OPs GM

[All4BigGuns]

Most criticism got something worthwhile you can take from it, while you might disagree with it... It's worth to sit down and ponder 'why' someone would perceive it that way.
It helps to reread comments that seem confrontational in a calm and friendly voice, or with the narration of Christopher Walken.
(Why? Have you ever heard him read three little pigs? that's why)

Also I was prodding at Bigguns crusade against the OPs GM

There are simply lines that shouldn't be crossed, and he has crossed them. Even if the man isn't excised from the group entirely, he should be removed from the GM's seat at the very least.

[hermit]

Yeah, I'm done. I'm clearly not explaining it to my critics very well, and they're clearly biased to dislike it (...)My players will love it. I'll enjoy GMing it. What else matters, I guess? Some of the forums can just dismiss it as shit, it really shouldn't matter to me, so I'm gonna force myself not to let it bug me.

Woo, passive and active agression in one post! Also, you should learn to differ between criticism of your work, and personal attacks. It'll help you in all walks of life, I promise.

I have not updated recently because our game has been put on hiatus for the time being.

We have had that sit down and talk with our GM, and he apologized for going a bit too far. However he isn't going to change the story plot or direction until we are done with this arc, and he says its for good reason (plus the table has agreed to roll with it after all) because he has something really massive planned.

He does like Bishop's suggestion on the composure tests all the way back at post #80, so he's likely going to use that from here on out.

Well, if you can live with that, it's a workable compromise I guess. It would depend on what he means by 'driection' - if it is "characters are forced by mysterious forces to do horrible things", that'd be different from "lol rape lol".

What I'm sort of interested in, though, is why he slammed your character - the Face was yours, right? - like he did. If he ever told, that is.

[Lionhearted]

There are simply lines that shouldn't be crossed, and he has crossed them. Even if the man isn't excised from the group entirely, he should be removed from the GM's seat at the very least.

I maintain that new GMs make mistakes, sometimes really stupid mistakes...
But you cannot grow unless you make those mistakes and unless someone else wants to handle the creative burden they must need give him some room to go through the motions and grow.

Some of my players still have huge flaws as GMs. For example, one can't stand the players "winning" to the point that he completely banned oil (we kinda beat a pirate ship with oil flasks) another have no concept on how to properly reward players, making it so that we often lose money simply progressing.
Both of them are still struggling with breaking loose from railroading.
I give them a helping hand, but they still need room to learn these things on their own.

I could just take their GM hats and run the show on my own, but I neither have the time nor the desire to do so, that's how working relationships function... With compromise.

I'm a bit curious as to why he would push on after the criticism though.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah, I'm done. I'm clearly not explaining it to my critics very well, and they're clearly biased to dislike it because it doesn't match how they run things at their tables, and they've already made up their minds about what they think it is I'm doing and why, and it's just not worth the headache.

My players will love it. I'll enjoy GMing it. What else matters, I guess? Some of the forums can just dismiss it as shit, it really shouldn't matter to me, so I'm gonna force myself not to let it bug me. *shrug*

~Umi

I'm confused, are you the GM in question that impregnated a character, and turned another into a spree rapist with no warning and apparently no savings throws Just 'You see elf women and try and rape one!!" type thing?

Or are you sorta being snarky and "Posting as if you're the guy" with his apparent reply?

[hermit]

He is refering to a side track of the conversation that has no relation with DamHawke's group whatsoever.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Kay. Thanks hermit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

I think Umidori's idea could potentially be cool, but it's one of those things that it is hard to implement at a gaming table without players taking it the wrong way, or approaching it in a way that messes up the GM's plans, or getting frustrated rather than engaged in the storyline. If Umidori really knows his players, then this might have a better chance of working than it looks like it would in its description.

[DamHawke]

If he's been pulled aside and told that the players are weirded out and uncomfortable and comes back with "However he isn't going to change the story plot or direction untill we're done with this arc" Then he doesn't care. He's getting his jollies and the group can help him do so till he's done.

Perhaps I should have been more elaborate. The story and plot will not change, true. The things he did to our characters, no change either. BUT he has given our characters a solution till we figure out what's happened to us in the big picture, and that was removing about 95% of our compulsive behaviours through administered drugs. Granted its only a temporary solution, its still better than having absolutely no control.

and apparently no savings throws

We did get saving throws that have to be rolled at least once every game day. Just not very good ones. Sammy and Face do Will saves, Rigger and Medic do Body saves. Sniper's essentially cured at this point.

[All4BigGuns]

Perhaps I should have been more elaborate. The story and plot will not change, true. The things he did to our characters, no change either. BUT he has given our characters a solution till we figure out what's happened to us in the big picture, and that was removing about 95% of our compulsive behaviours through administered drugs. Granted its only a temporary solution, its still better than having absolutely no control.

We did get saving throws that have to be rolled at least once every game day. Just not very good ones. Sammy and Face do Will saves, Rigger and Medic do Body saves. Sniper's essentially cured at this point.

Still quite ridiculous. It's even worse that he's obviously intentionally trying to target the weakest defenses of the different team members. This further pushes my resolve to see your group eject him at least from the GM seat.

[Umidori]

@Glyph

Perhaps an aspect of the problem is that I made it all sound too set in stone? Like I have a set of proverbial rails that I'm itching to make the players ride?

The actual reality is almost the opposite - I improvise nearly everything at my tables, other than the overarching storyline I'm hoping to follow. I plan out a loose structure, an outline really, of key persons and events, and eveyrthing in between tends to get filled in haphazardly. And because of this, I often put a lot of effort into thinking about a concept when I write up a story arc - into thinking about the kind of experience I want the players to have to cope with, and then only really bringing it all together when we sit down to play.

And there's the disconnect, I think. I pitched the concept as mere concept, without any regard for actual implementation, which kind of makes it sound like I'm fucking around with my players, trying to ruin their fun, and just want to lord over them with my Super Ultra Uber Villian Dude™. I assure you, this is not the case. And I also assure you, if the players surprise me (as they often do!) and deviate substantially from my mission structure, I'm ready and willing to throw away my own story outline and let them write a new one on the fly. I've done it before. And I find that having a very strong concept in my head allows me to improvise much more smoothly.

~Umi

[ds1138]

Wow. Alright, I used to post on DS a looooong time ago, and just got back into Shadowrun, and signed back up for the forum specifically to respond to this post. Forgive me if I'm wrong on any (factual) points regarding the discussion, as I read most of the thread like a week ago.

Let me say first of all that I'm glad to see everyone on here still argues like they're at a drunken, schizophrenic family reunion.

Second, here's my take on the OP's campaign--

I really wish I was in that game. While there have been some obvious missteps (if you're gonna make a guy roll to resist rape-urge, you should probably, as GM, not force him into contact with his rape-trigger, and maybe roll for it--there are, after all, pretty clear demographic statistics for the SR universe), overall I think what he's doing is fairly cool.

First of all, there's plenty of GMs on this board whose response to the whole team getting KOed would be to have them make new characters. That sucks. Using it as a plot hook is awesome. If the whole thing pans out to be lame, well, then you can start cursing him for it.

The thing is, it's thematically fantastic.

Yes, "themes" are good for RPGs. Some might say that a good story with cool themes are the entire point. Maybe it's just that during my long break from SR I got really into White Wolf (Revised edition), mainly Mage and VtM. In Vampire ("personal horror" vampire, not "superhero undead fight alien terrors" Vampire), this kind of stuff is...well, extremely mild. Stuff tends to get really unsettling, but it's good, because it's well-written. I had forgotten that there were so many people playing SR who preferred that sort of tabletop-videogame, thoughtless-series-of-missions style of gaming.

Here's WHY it's thematically cool--

Guy who has replaced significant portions of his (meta)human body with electricity and machines, in order to interact more fully with other machines, starts shocking himself. With electricity. That one's simplistic, but it's just the start.

Woman whose job is coldly taking people's lives from an extreme distance wakes up thinking she suddenly has a life to support and care for INSIDE OF HER. That's fantastic.

The face seems to be everyone's main problem. Or, at least the people who are ironically name-calling someone a 14-year-old. So, a guy whose entire lifestyle revolves around manipulating other people, who we can assume is socially adept, we can also assume probably gets laid a lot. And given his rather amoral lifestyle, we can also assume he doesn't expend much time or energy caring for his partners. Suddenly has this entire element of his personality jacked up to the extreme. Even if the character is actually completely asexual, his job is still manipulating others to get what he wants and then taking it by force if that doesn't work.

Same thing with the murder-machine who now MUST be a murder-machine.

The fact that no one in this thread seems to have caught on to this incredibly obvious theme amazes me. It's rare that morality is even involved in most SR games, and forcing the PCs to consider it by giving their inner demons a dose of K-10 is pretty cool.

As for the overtly sexual nature of all of these compulsions, it takes about fifteen minutes of community college psych to understand that most psychological issues are rooted, at least partially, in sexuality. If you're afraid of that, that's cool, enjoy playing your tabletop game in your magical land where nobody has any perversions or engages in sexual activity of any kind. I think adults should be allowed to tell adult stories with adult themes. If you're not into that, fine, but don't judge anyone else for doing so.

As for asking the players' permission to go this route beforehand, I'm going to go ahead and assume that this GM, like, has met his players once or twice before, and would therefore probably have a good grasp of what might be triggers for them.

All that said, this "big thing" he's going for better involve a.) a way to free your PCs from their psychiatric bondage, b.) hefty rewards for what they've gone through, and c.) a tale of redemption for the characters that went off the deep end, which is actually the player's responsibility, and judging from what I've read, seems to be the entire goal of this interesting adventure.

Is it Shakespeare? No. But it's lots better than "Go to meet. Do legwork. Execute run without alerting security and retrieve paydata/target/whatever without being noticed or injured. Get paid. Use Karma reward to get to level 80 so we can start doing the epic-level raids. Repeat."

And really, how can you keep a straight face condemning a story about rape in a game where an entire nation runs on blood sacrifices, a game that printed a sourcebook (one of its best) featuring a young child's diary of his neighbors and family being picked off by an AI that ripped out their eyeballs, raped their brains, and turned them into zombified servants (after it made them spend weeks and weeks in VR torture chambers that would make the producers of Saw squirm)? Read about the Barrens and the Z-Zones and ask yourself how often people get raped there. It's called "dystopia" for a reason.

I've got my asbestos underwear (or flame-retarded FFBA, whatever), so let loose.

***

As for the whole Umidori's game tangent, well, first off--

An essential element of the "Mary Sue" is that the character in question is a stand-in for the author (the best recent examples being 50 Shades of Grey and the horrifyingly awful tween Mormon twinkleporn that spawned it). In the case of GMs, this usually ends up being a GMPC. In the case of RPGs in general, this is usually half of the characters that ever get drawn up. Personally, the first character I make in any system is almost always a "what would I be like if I was in this world" character, just to get my sense of the game world down. No matter.

If that character WAS a Mary Sue, I don't think that Umi would have already planned out how his PCs are going to eventually kill it.

At any rate, http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm. Have a blast with it.

My players will love it. I'll enjoy GMing it. What else matters, I guess? Some of the forums can just dismiss it as shit, it really shouldn't matter to me, so I'm gonna force myself not to let it bug me."

I like this guy.

Most criticism got something worthwhile you can take from it,

Considering the fact that that "criticism" was people projecting what THEY want out of a game onto HIS game using literary terms they don't properly understand, I'm gonna have to go ahead and say, uh, no, you're wrong.

Furthermore, for whoever was complaining of him "handwaving" his Johnson (heh), there are incredibly simple explanations for how a powerful magician or magical creature could do these things.

For example, showing up to their meet with the other Johnson and murdering him by starting his car on fire? That would require a level two initiate with Divining, Masking, and a fire spell. At most.

Yeah, that's super overpowered. I bet your group never ran any of the Harlequin mods, huh?

I also want to be in Umidori's game, for the record. Even moreso than the other, because in this case I know for a fact he's a good storyteller, rather than inferring it from evidence that a high-schooler could use to suss out the plot of a novel.

[All4BigGuns]

Dude, did you not see the most important line for what happened with the sniper? Just in case, here it is again.

Our GM did say he would have never done it if the player was female though.

That is complete and total bullcrap. If he's that against playing gender opposite that of the player than he either needs to get over it or not GM. Period.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Annnnnd the GM in question shows up to get an account and post. lol

[ds1138]

All4BigGuns, I actually agree with you through-and-through on that. Thing is, this is a gaming board, not a gender politics board. That he said that offends me personally and definitely indicates a problem, unfortunately, it's a problem that the majority of men seem to have. But I'm really not interested in a gender-politics debate; I'm just posting to say...well, what I said; none of which you responded to.

Annnnnd the GM in question shows up to get an account and post. lol

Were that the case, it would've been hilarious. Alas, 'tis not.

[ds1138]

To be more specific, the reason I have a problem with the whole "well I wouldn't have done it if you were REALLY a girl" thing isn't that the GM is against...what, playing the opposite gender? I don't even see how that can be an issue. It's that it reeks of male privilege and gender bias.

Edit: Which, again, is not exactly unheard of in the official game of 40-year-old-men playing 16-year-old lesbian catgirl ninjas.

[Pepsi Jedi]

All4BigGuns, I actually agree with you through-and-through on that. Thing is, this is a gaming board, not a gender politics board. That he said that offends me personally and definitely indicates a problem, unfortunately, it's a problem that the majority of men seem to have. But I'm really not interested in a gender-politics debate; I'm just posting to say...well, what I said; none of which you responded to.



Were that the case, it would've been hilarious. Alas, 'tis not.

*Shrugs* I've no way to prove it. From your page long reply, adding in alot as if you knew exactly what the GM was going for, as it was your first post ever, and you speak so difinativly and very much defensively of it, out of the blue, as your first post ever, and how you think it's just awesome to impregnate people, make them rapists and serial killers with out their consent, as if it was the height of storytelling, I think it 'tis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It looks as if the player mentioned it to his GM that he'd put the stuff up on the board and it was being ill received. (( I don't think I or anyone else 'flamed' it. Not liking something and saying they wouldn't sit for it isn't the same thing as FLAMING. I for example don't like Coke. Me saying I don't like coke and wouldn't drink it if it was offered, isn't me flaming coke.)) The GM hearing that his story wasn't being well received, came on, read the thread, got an account and posted a pages long reply defending himself

No worries though. If you are, that's cool. (( Like I said, not liking something doesn't mean you're being flamed.)) If not. That's cool too. Just the first post in the pond and it's that one in that way, LOOKS like you are he.

Either way, if you are the GM, or just a guy that just so happens to make that his first post ever on the board, WELCOME! The more the merrier!!