Sneakyness and Darkness Options

[yesferatu]

Hey guys,

So I have a trollbow that specializes in stealth and toxins.
He's prefers a chameleon suit.

Surprise question:
Basic combat style...
1. Infiltrate somewhere
2. Ready arrow
3. Aim w/ 1st simple
4. Fire

How does my target defend against that?
Is that attack treated as a surprise attack?

What about the next shot?
Does my target need to locate me before he isn't surprised?
Does the surprise attack only count on the first shot?


Darkness:
How would someone defend against me in the dark?
The visibility rules seem to only apply to attackers.
Is there some kind of penalty on defense in total darkness?
Does it matter if you know you're being attacked, but you don't know where it's coming from?

Spirits and toxins:
Can I hit a manifested spirit with a Gamma Scopolamine arrow and knock them out or do they have innate immunity to toxins?
Usually, immunity to anything is a listed power (Devil rats).
So...do toxins work on spirits?

[bannockburn]

1. Infiltrate
1a. Target makes perception test to notice you (if he does, commence normal combat)
2. Ready arrow
3. Aim
4. Make surprise test, probably with bonus, depending on circumstances.
5. Roll initiative
6. If you're first, roll attack, if target is first, he will do nothing (provided he lost the surprise test).
6a. If target lost surprise test, he may not dodge or use reaction to evade your attack and will just soak the damage. If target won the surprise test, he may attack you or react to your attack as normal. Initiative order applies, of course.

The next shot will not surprise the target anymore, and he will very probably be dead. If he isn't, he may dodge and react normally. It only counts on one initiative pass. If you can squeeze off, say, two salvoes with a SMG, the target is unable to react to any of them.

Defense against surprise in the dark can use visibility modifiers, if the GM is so inclined, but there are, of course, other senses.

[Umidori]

Darkness will impose the appropriate visibility modifiers to the enemy's perception rolls.

By RAW, spirits are not immune to toxins, but if you're using injection arrows for the toxin, you need to actually inflict at least a single point of damage with the arrow to successfully deliver the toxin. As spirits have immunity to normal weapons, that might normally be somewhat difficult, but since you're using a trollbow, I imagine you'll be doing 10P per arrow anyway. Add in the fact that a suprise attack is simply a success test rather than an opposed one, and you probably don't even need the toxin to drop a spirit.

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

4. Make surprise test, probably with bonus, depending on circumstances.
5. Roll initiative
6. If you're first, roll attack, if target is first, he will do nothing (provided he lost the surprise test).
6a. If target lost surprise test, he may not dodge or use reaction to evade your attack and will just soak the damage. If target won the surprise test, he may attack you or react to your attack as normal. Initiative order applies, of course.

The thing is surprise only means that the character cannot interact with the shooter/any one else that surprises him. It does not prohibit him from running away or dropping prone. This however will only matter if the target loses the surprise test but rolls a higher initiative.

[Lantzer]

The thing is surprise only means that the character cannot interact with the shooter/any one else that surprises him. It does not prohibit him from running away or dropping prone. This however will only matter if the target loses the surprise test but rolls a higher initiative.

Dropping prone or running away IS reacting to the shooter. Kind of hard to decide to run away from the complete suprise shot before it happens.

[Umidori]

Seconded.

If someone surprises you, you are not allowed to respond to their actions in any way. You might respond to a different hostile who didn't surprise you, but for the one that DID suprise you, you as a player must act as if you are unaware or unprepared for them and their actions. So no running, no putting your hands up and surrending, nothing.

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

Seconded.

If someone surprises you, you are not allowed to respond to their actions in any way. You might respond to a different hostile who didn't surprise you, but for the one that DID suprise you, you as a player must act as if you are unaware or unprepared for them and their actions. So no running, no putting your hands up and surrending, nothing.

~Umi

The thing is you are not reacting to the character surprising you, you are reacting to the surprise. You can drop prone/run for cover, but once you are prone/behind cover you cannot defend yourself against anyone that surprises you. Neither actions have any interaction between the surpriser and the surprised. If any action were prohibited the rules would say so. Instead they say

The surprised character also cannot react to those characters’ actions in any way. The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it).

[Umidori]

And directly after that comes this.

Note that friends may surprise as well as foes. A character caught in an ambush situation may not react to his friend’s warning to duck, for example, if the friend also surprised him.

So you're basically saying that as you read the rules, if an enemy surprises you, you can react to that by "ducking" and dropping prone, but if an ally surprises you, you can't react to his warning to duck or "drop prone"?

~Umi

[yesferatu]

I understand the initial surprise rules, but what about the following IP/Turn?
Is there a benefit to the attacker if he remains undetected?
If a target can't locate their attacker, how can they defend themselves?

Is the only benefit of stealth that your target can't attack back?

[Umidori]

As far as I know, surprise only applies for the first pass. Even for a Disguised sniper who remains undetected, after that first pass the enemy can try to dodge their shots as normal, as well as return fire (albeit at a -6 for Blind Fire if they still can't see the sniper).

As for the benefits of stealth, it's not just that the opponent can't return fire during the first pass, but it's also that they can't defend themselves via Dodge, Block, or Parry. Basically you roll your attack and if you get any hits, it's an automatic success, since the enemy doesn't get to roll and therefor opposes your attack roll with 0 hits.

~Umi

[yesferatu]

Well sure, that's the benefit of Surprise, but if you can defend against subsequent attacks as normal - I don't see a benefit from remaining hidden. Isn't there a "blind" defense modifier? It isn't exactly surprise, but you still don't know the source of the attack?
It seems like all the visibility rules only concern the attacker.

[Umidori]

Defender Unaware of Attack

If the defender is unaware of an incoming attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead. This does not apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat (see Superior Position,p. 158).

Superior Position

A character has a superior position if he is standing on higher ground (by at least half a meter) than his opponent, if he is standing on stable ground while the opponent is not, if he is attacking the opponent from behind, or if the opponent is in a restricted position and the character is not. Note that if a target is not aware that an attack is coming (see Surprise, p. 165), then he cannot defend against it (no dodge or parry). It is generally assumed that characters engaged in combat have enough situational awareness to notice attacks from behind (and thus dodge/parry them) unless the attacker is using Infiltration skill to sneak up on the character.

In straight combat, visibility modifiers don't affect Defense rolls, to my knowledge. Attackers lose dice for having their vision impaired, but Defenders do not. The exception is when the Defender is Unaware of an attack. When an attacker is hidden, Visibility Modifiers indirectly affect Defense by reducing the defender's perception dice pool, thus making it harder to detect the attacker, and if the defender fails to do so, making the attack impossible to defend against.

The benefit of remaining hidden, as an attacker, is that you can keep getting "Surprise Attacks" throughout a combat by alternating Infiltration and Attacking. Remember, since Infiltration requires a Complex Action, you'll have to "disengage" from combat after every attack to hide somewhere, and then jump back in from hiding to catch the defender unaware. If you are a sniper, you can instead Disguise yourself to set up a hidden sniping point and can fire freely, only becoming visible once the defenders are able to beat your disguise threshold with a perception roll and see through your disguise.

~Umi

[Halinn]

I don't see a benefit from remaining hidden.

Your targets not shooting back at you would seem to be a benefit, but that might just be me...

[Umidori]

Your targets CAN shoot back at you via Blind Fire, albeit at a -6 modifier and using Intuition instead of Agility.

~Umi

[yesferatu]

I guess I'm trying to determine if Infiltration should give you the Superior Position bonus until your target locates you.
If you have to spend a complex action re-Infiltrating every turn/IP you'd never get an attack off.

[Umidori]

Per RAW, if you're attacking from behind, you get the Superior Position bonus.

If you are also Hidden, the defender is Unaware and cannot defend. You still get the Superior Position bonus.

If the enemy spots you with their Perception roll, they are not unaware and can defend, but if you are still behind them, you still get the Superior Position bonus.

If you are mid combat and Infiltrate, and beat the defender's perception roll to see you, you are (per GM discretion) Hidden until your next action phase, at which point you can Infiltrate again to maintain your Hidden state - or you can make a Suprise Attack, coming out of hiding and reverting to "Normal" combat until the combat either ends, or you hide again.

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

So you're basically saying that as you read the rules, if an enemy surprises you, you can react to that by "ducking" and dropping prone, but if an ally surprises you, you can't react to his warning to duck or "drop prone"?

You cannot follow his order to duck, but if your reaction to anything unexpected is to duck/run for cover, you can do that.

Also I'm not saying that the rules make sense, just what they are.

[Umidori]

I think they're just badly written, and you're accidentally misinterpreting the ruling.

The way I see it, if you get jumped by two goons, one of which you see coming, the other of which you do not, and you want to react to Goon B by dropping prone, you are allowed to do so because it isn't a direct response to Goon A, who suprised you. It still indirectly affects Goon A's ability to attack you by modifying his roll, but because it is a coincidental action, it doesn't create a confliction. Likewise, you could ready your gun in response to Goon B, and even fire it at Goon B, but you couldn't fire it at Goon A.

That reading of the rule makes much more sense and seems more likely to be what was intended (and poorly conveyed).

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

I disagree. Dropping prone and running to cover can be done with or without an attacker. So there need not be an interaction between the attacker and the surprised.

Don't forget though that his only very rarely occurs. The surprised must roll less successes than the attacker and have a higher initiative than him.

[Umidori]

Except whether or not you can do it, no one would ever drop prone or run to cover if they weren't being attacked. ("Take cover from what?! There's no attacker!")

To me this is tantamount to metagaming. Your character just got surprised. They're blindsided, entirely unaware of the enemy leveling a pistol at them from behind. But because you as a player know that you lost a surprise roll, your character magically thinks "I should duck behind cover!" for absolutely no reason? I call bullshit.

Maybe if you were already Alerted via your perception test, then taking cover would make sense. (Although if you have enough time to throw yourself bodily to the ground or behind an object, why don't you have enough time to shoot a gun?)

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

That is a basic flight reaction. Something startled the character, but he does not know what. So he might try to dive behind the dumpster. Whether this actually helps will only become clear to him after the first shot. Only then can he determine if the dumpster is indeed between him and the threat. A similar determination can be made for dropping prone (Is it a ranged or melee attack? Is the attacker farther away than 5m?).

[Umidori]

You're refering to the Fight or Flight Response, I assume. To which I must ask, if you have the instinctual response to be able to reflexively Flee, why would you not also be able to reflexively Fight?

Or put more bluntly, if you don't have time to pull a trigger, even just to spray lead wildly, how the fuzz are you able to throw yourself to the ground?

~Umi

[Dolanar]

My input on this: You lost the Surprise test, your instincts are dull & your flight instinct is not helping you, the initiative phase has nothing to do with your perception of the attacker, it is simply a mechanic that determines the order in which things happen in the game. Someone who has lost the surprise action & has no way of knowing the attacker is there, has no reason to think anything is wrong, (mind you this is the reason I think the initative phase should come AFTER the surprise attack has happened to alleviate problems of this nature) You should take actions as though there is no attack coming your way, whatever they may be (If I were GM'ing this scenario if the player jumped behind cover I would ask what they were hiding from, if they in any way indicated the surprise attacking coming after their action I would correct them)

[Teulisch]

for a given point, theres going to be a limited number of good sniping spots. there is always the possibility that the targets overwatch is already using that sniper nest....

[Dakka Dakka]

You're refering to the Fight or Flight Response, I assume. To which I must ask, if you have the instinctual response to be able to reflexively Flee, why would you not also be able to reflexively Fight?

Or put more bluntly, if you don't have time to pull a trigger, even just to spray lead wildly, how the fuzz are you able to throw yourself to the ground?

I don't see any rule that surprised characters are not allowed to use suppressive fire. That is not an action that "directly affect(s), impede(s), or counteract(s) characters that have surprised them."

My input on this: You lost the Surprise test, your instincts are dull & your flight instinct is not helping you, the initiative phase has nothing to do with your perception of the attacker, it is simply a mechanic that determines the order in which things happen in the game. Someone who has lost the surprise action & has no way of knowing the attacker is there, has no reason to think anything is wrong, (mind you this is the reason I think the initative phase should come AFTER the surprise attack has happened to alleviate problems of this nature) You should take actions as though there is no attack coming your way, whatever they may be (If I were GM'ing this scenario if the player jumped behind cover I would ask what they were hiding from, if they in any way indicated the surprise attacking coming after their action I would correct them)

The thing is you cannot be surprised at things that you do not notice, then you would be oblivious. So even a failed surprise test must mean that you are aware that something is wrong. The failed result simply means you do not know what.