Sneakyness and Darkness Options

[Dolanar]

not at all, a surprise test is still just a mechanic used to determine whether or not in a given situation your instincts would kick in.

on a successful surprise test you realize something is amiss & you react to the unforeseen danger.

if you fail...your character has no clue that something behind the scenes is going on, I don't see how something that is essentially "behind the scenes" suddenly alerts your character to a danger they have no way to perceive in character.

Edit: just to throw an example out there to be sure we're on the same wavelength...I have your character in my cross hairs, I am 10 stories above you o the top of a building, we roll the surprise test, & I beat you, but you roll a better initiative...you have NO WAY of knowing you are in my cross hairs...you have NO REASON to duck & hide, because there is no perceived danger to you, takign any action to defend or block my shot is pure & utter metagaming.

[Dakka Dakka]

not at all, a surprise test is still just a mechanic used to determine whether or not in a given situation your instincts would kick in.

on a successful surprise test you realize something is amiss & you react to the unforeseen danger.

No, a successful test allows you to realize what is going on and act accordingly

if you fail...your character has no clue that something behind the scenes is going on, I don't see how something that is essentially "behind the scenes" suddenly alerts your character to a danger they have no way to perceive in character.

A failed result only prevents you from interacting with those that surprised you. That the character is surprised means that he notices something is wrong and can react to that fact. Don't forget even allies can surprise each other, so such a blind reaction need not always be helpful.

Edit: just to throw an example out there to be sure we're on the same wavelength...I have your character in my cross hairs, I am 10 stories above you o the top of a building, we roll the surprise test, & I beat you, but you roll a better initiative...you have NO WAY of knowing you are in my cross hairs...you have NO REASON to duck & hide, because there is no perceived danger to you, takign any action to defend or block my shot is pure & utter metagaming.

No it is not. You have a reason to duck and hide because you took a surprise test. The failed result means you do not know who or what to hide from. In this case the GM should not give any indication from where the attack is coming, so the player cannot deduce (metagame) the right direction. He then has a chance to randomly pick the right one, but that is about it.

[Dolanar]

yeah, but in the example above, what actions would you take? you'd go on about your business as usual.

[Dakka Dakka]

yeah, but in the example above, what actions would you take? you'd go on about your business as usual.

Why? Wen you notice that something is wrong, going for cover is not unreasonable.

[Dolanar]

except in the situation well above that was originally mentioned the person in question has FAILED the surprise test but succeeded on the Initiative test, THAT is what we are discussing not passing the surprise test.

[Dakka Dakka]

As I said before, rolling the test means that the character knows something is wrong, succeeding at it means that he knows who or what wants to do him or someone else wrong. The initiative roll is independent of that it merely determines who gets to act first.

[Dolanar]

so you contend that the act of rolling a surprise roll tips the character off regardless of whether her succeeds or fails the surprise test?

That is overpowered beyond belief IMO, that means there is no use rolling surprise in a game that you play because even if you fail, the person is not surprised.

[Dakka Dakka]

so you contend that the act of rolling a surprise roll tips the character off regardless of whether her succeeds or fails the surprise test?

That is overpowered beyond belief IMO, that means there is no use rolling surprise in a game that you play because even if you fail, the person is not surprised.

He is surprised. That is what the rules state. He is not however oblivious or unable to act (that is The Other Game). He is only unable to directly interact with those that surprise him. Dropping prone or running behind an object is no direct interaction with anyone surprising him, and only if he rolls a higher initiative than the attacker will that happen before the attack. He will not get defense tests nor will be able to attack anyone who surprises him, regardless of initiative.

[Dolanar]

ok...in a situation where there is 2 people only, you & the person attacking you, & he is nowhere near you (as in the case of a sniper) you fail your Surprise Roll & win the initiative. WHAT ARE YOU REACTING TOO to take cover or drop prone? this is where I am getting the conflicting idea. In any way of interpreting it I don;t see a the dropping prone or hiding a logical reaction in this scenario. The only thing I can think is that the character is reacting to the actual Roll not a perceived danger.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He is surprised. That is what the rules state. He is not however oblivious or unable to act (that is The Other Game). He is only unable to directly interact with those that surprise him. Dropping prone or running behind an object is no direct interaction with anyone surprising him, and only if he rolls a higher initiative than the attacker will that happen before the attack. He will not get defense tests nor will be able to attack anyone who surprises him, regardless of initiative.

Actually Running away or dropping prone is a DIRECT RESPONSE to the action of the Surprising character, if he is the only combatant other than the target. Especially if the Action has yet to occur. The surprise is the bullet impacting the character (from the Sniper stationed 600 Meters away). If that action has yet to occur, then the character cannot by definition be surprised yet, since he will be unaware that there is a situation until the action has occurred (whether he is hit or the bullet misses him). Running/Taking Cover is a Defense mechanism that DIRECTLY IMPACTS the shooter in this instance (penalty to hit a running target/bonus of Cover to the Defending Character, who should get no defense). As such, he does not get to take those actions.

[Umidori]

Actually Running away or dropping prone is a DIRECT RESPONSE to the action of the Surprising character, if he is the only combatant other than the target.

Hear, hear!

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

Actually Running away or dropping prone is a DIRECT RESPONSE to the action of the Surprising character, if he is the only combatant other than the target. Especially if the Action has yet to occur. The surprise is the bullet impacting the character (from the Sniper stationed 600 Meters away). If that action has yet to occur, then the character cannot by definition be surprised yet, since he will be unaware that there is a situation until the action has occurred (whether he is hit or the bullet misses him). Running/Taking Cover is a Defense mechanism that DIRECTLY IMPACTS the shooter in this instance (penalty to hit a running target/bonus of Cover to the Defending Character, who should get no defense). As such, he does not get to take those actions.

First of all dropping prone while surprised is explicitly allowed by the rules:

The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it).

So dropping prone and anything else that does not do anything to the shooter is allowed.

Secondly the order of events is different, if the surprised character gets a higher initiative than the shooter. The character is not surprised at the large hole in his chest, he is surprised at some clue the attacker gives before shooting. An Unsurprised character would correctly interpret this clue as someone trying to shoot him, while the surprised one would just know something is wrong.

If the character is surprised and too slow, he can only wonder at the large hole in his chest.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

First of all dropping prone while surprised is explicitly allowed by the rules:So dropping prone and anything else that does not do anything to the shooter is allowed.

Secondly the order of events is different, if the surprised character gets a higher initiative than the shooter. The character is not surprised at the large hole in his chest, he is surprised at some clue the attacker gives before shooting. An Unsurprised character would correctly interpret this clue as someone trying to shoot him, while the surprised one would just know something is wrong.

If the character is surprised and too slow, he can only wonder at the large hole in his chest.

And yet you are saying that you would allow an Action/Nonaction to somehow, mysteriously, alert someone 600 Meters away, who cannot even have a chance in hell of perceiving that action, to somehow react to something that has yet to happen. I call BS. The first indication of a problem will either be the gaping wound in his chest/head, or the snap of the bullet passing by the target at high velocity. At which point he is more than welcome to make a suprise test. *shrug*

[Dolanar]

this is IMO the problem with the surprise rules, Initiative & the surprise test should come AFTER someone has taken their shot, not before, because then you have issues such as this, where some mysterious force has somehow warned a character who has no reason to be warned that someone is about to shoot them.

[Lionhearted]

Gut feeling?
Having it be the other way around eliminates the point of a surprise test (as the assailant would always be successful) and lead to silly scenarios in situations where the attacker could be detected.

[Starmage21]

this is IMO the problem with the surprise rules, Initiative & the surprise test should come AFTER someone has taken their shot, not before, because then you have issues such as this, where some mysterious force has somehow warned a character who has no reason to be warned that someone is about to shoot them.

Its a game mechanic that favors the lives of player characters. Without it, your PC dies a horrible death anytime there is a high-flying security drone you didnt notice who takes a shot at you. Because you know, players arent their characters, and they forget to do simple shit ALL THE TIME.