bayonets, munchkin fun Options

[xizor]

First off a bayonet is by cannon a long knife attached to the under-barrel mount of a rifle. When this knife is attached to the rifle it is called a bayonet, when it is not attached to the rifle it is called a knife.

Bayonet (Str +2 M)
Knife (Str L).
Rifle butt (Str + 2 M)

Now this can be improved by hardening you rifle.
Bayonet from (Str +2 M) to [Str +3 M].
Rifle butt from (Str +2 M) to [Str +3 M]

Replace the knife (Str L) with a Cougar fine blade (long blade) [Str + 1 M].
Bayonet from (Str +3 M) to [Str +4 S]
Cougar fine blade (long blade) form (Str L) to [Str +1 M]

Then dikote the Cougar fine blade (long blade)
Bayonet from (Str +4 S) to [Str +5 D]
Cougar fine blade (long blade) from (Str +1 M) to [Str + 2S]

For a total of:
Bayonet [Str +5 D]
Cougar fine blade (long blade) [Str +2 S]
Rifle butt [Str +3 M]

does this make sense? or would you like this to fall into a black hole?

(i do realize that there has been some discussion over weather or not you can Dikote cougar fine blades and i view that you can dikote them.)

[broho_pcp]

head hurts, I vote for black hole.

I would say you could do it legally, but I wouldn't allow it easily in my games. Definitally not at Character creation. But I like your thinking, inventive.

[Arethusa]

The bayonet rules aren't right, that's for sure. But assuming you don't get rid of them (and more sanely rule that you get +2 power from attaching it to a rifle instead of +1 DL), I have to say I wouldn't allow the Cougars to gain +1DL from dikoting; +2 power, maybe, but that's it. As it stands, clever, but insane. Get thee to a black hole(ry).

[Crusher Bob]

The fine blades are supposed to be 'dikoted' already. That why they are knives with M damage levels (and why thek cost so much).

[Arethusa]

The description never mentions dikoting per se; just a monomolecular edge and effects similar to dikoting (and no explanation of what material is capable of holding such and edge, but whatever).

[Glyph]

The bayonet damage is not a "boost" to knife damage. It is a stat for a completely new, composite weapon. Sticking a Cougar Fineblade on the end of a rifle might be slightly more effective than a "standard" bayonet, but on the other hand, you could be losing effectiveness by taking off a long, thrusting blade and replacing it with a knife meant to be used as more of a slashing weapon, with a contoured grip that normally gives it the leverage for that type of maneuver.

[Yum Donuts]

Also, melee hardening should not increase the power of a bayonet. it's intended to be used for using the weapon itself as a melee weapon (i.e. bludgeoning).

This hardening reinforces the gun to make it able to stand the blow (use a break action shotgun like a baseball bat and see how long it lasts), makes it a bit heavier (more useful for small guns when pistolwhipping) and also provides a good striking area if there isn't one already. (small pistols may not have good areas to hit with).

it does not alter the damage a bayonet would do.
at least not in my books, if you're set the other way, though, I doubt I changed your mind.

[Lilt]

Now what you want is an ambidexterous troll adept wielding 2 of them. As the rifle+bayonet is technically a 2-handed weapon, the troll gets +1TN and -1 power (P99, CC) but he'll probably mince most stuff that gets within a 3m radius of him. Plus the ambidexterous adept troll can shoot the two rifles simultaniously at no penalty!

[TechnoDruid]

Also, bayonets are a bit thicker and heavier than a knife. Bayonets are used for thrusting, not slashing, as has already been brought up. Just some more thought to add to the mix.

[Arethusa]

I'd like to point out that while old bayonets were not really any good at slashing and were much heavier than knives, by WW2 and stuff like the M3, they had gotten to a point where they doubled as knives and could slash (though the Germans and Brits were still using what were essentially shortened versions of what they'd used in WW1). Though I do agree that bayonets should get +1 power compared to knives, as the SR description of the knife is something along the lines of a cheap switchblade and not a real knife.

[Drain Brain]

[Firewall]

How about other broken-ness? What skill is used for a bayonet? Effectively, it is a poorly balanced spear/polearm.

[RedmondLarry]

Yes, Polearm/Staff skill is used for a Bayonet on a Rifle. (CC p. 32)

xizor, the bayonet is already a long knife. You can't get a second bonus for making it long. But I like your attitude.

[gknoy]

I'd say that the bayonet itself, if you hold it in your hand and make an attack, is jsut like any othe knife or small sword ...

but when you attach it to the end of a rifle, you are using a totally new weapon, it's much more like a madu or a short spear. With a rifle-length haft. ;)

Look at how the military trains people to use them, it is all about the stabbing, IIRC. (* only what i'veseen in movies, may not be factual. But I think it's pretty close.)

Fineblade probaby wouldn't help a bayonet -- since it's not eingineered for poking but for slicing.

Dikoting a bayonet should make it be more powerful, yeah ... just like if you used a dikoted spear blade.

[mfb]

cougar fineblades are defined as being double-bladed, which (usually) means it's got a point, which means it's just fine for stabbing.

[gfen]

First off, I offer up the following advice for just about anyone who
posts on an online forum about any RPG: The last letter is G. It stands
for "G"ame. Games are fun, you are not playing reality.

That said, its an abstract combat system because it needs to be fast and
easy to be fun, not needlessly complex and requiring of ridiculous levels
of research to enjoy.

Bayonettes work perfectly fine. If you want a bayonette, you buy a
bayonette. Not a Cougar, not a combat knife, not a regular knife. If you'll
notice the description of the bayonette it states that when not on rifle,
it does (Str)L, just like a knife. Yet, it costs more than a knife, it costs
$50 instead of $30. This is because its a bayonette!

I don't know the rules on hardening in my head, however, as someone else
said you harden your rifle for striking with it, but when you've affixxed
a bayonette to the end, you're striking with that, not the rifle butt, so
that doesn't apply. I vague remember Dikoting rules from SR2, and yeah, OK,
you can dikote your bayonette for those advantages when using it, but that
doesn't affect your striking with the rifle butt.

So, you can't fix your Cougars, your combats, your monoswords or even your
knives to the front of your rifle because they don't have bayonette lugs.
Its not the same. THe game balance is built right into the system, and its
because its a simple, abstract system that it works.

It only gets confusing when you go about trying to make it "realistic." Then
the errors become apparant.

So, on your rifle the bayonette does S(M+2) with +2 reach; in your hand it
does S(L); and a rifle butt does S(M+2) Stun. Its polearms for bayonette
on rifle, its edged for it in your hand, its clubs for a rifle butt. Its
all right there, and quite easy and valid. About the only room for wiggling
is to ask, "shouldn't rifle butts be polearms?"

[Cray74]

[TinkerGnome]

At the point where you're carrying around a monster bayonet+rifle combo, you should probably just switch to the dikoted combat axe and a pistol. What's wrong with that?

[shadd4d]

Unless you're in certain parts of the world, carrying a bayonet around is asking to be target practice. Corpsec isn't going to go non-lethal; if I've got a bayonet, it's shoot to kill. 8)

Don

[Apathy]

[Arethusa]

[Lilt]

Personally I think I would apply the +1 power from melee hardening to the bayonet damage. It's kindof like how if the shaft of your weapon is wobbly or your club is cracked you probably won't hit the target with as much force.

[Moon-Hawk]

If the shaft of your rifle is wobbly you've got serious problems. (and I don't mean that as an innuendo)
I don't see how making the weapon any more durable will make a bayonet stab more effective.
I could, however, see an argument that an underbarrel weight could add +1 to the power of bayonet/rifle butt attacks.

[Lilt]

I was thinking not so much that the rifle was wobbly, but that it could become wobbly if you hit someone with it. As-for the underbarrel weight idea: Nice if you can get your GM to allow you multiple/linked underbarrel mods.

If you're allowed that though then you'd be some sort of non-munchkin to not mount a lead-filled foregrip/underbarrel weight/bayonet-mount.

[Arethusa]

Honestly, I wouldn't allow +1 power from the weight. Even in real life, it wouldn't be significant enough, and it has too much potential for being broken in SR.