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> Quick Karmagen Question
DnDer
post Jan 19 2013, 03:09 AM
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Metatype costs listed (I only have pre-erata RC, so correct me if this is fixed post-errata) is [(1/2*karma)+(2*meta bp)].

That means humans get, at basic karmagen, 375 karma to spend, and elves get 435 to spend on their stats?

Does that give an overall benefit to metas versus plain humans, where in BP gen, taking a meta is a cost and a human is a benefit?
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Makki
post Jan 19 2013, 03:47 AM
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humans have more karma leftover to put in skills. Also in German errata karmagen, metatype cost in karma = cost in BP
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Jaid
post Jan 19 2013, 07:10 AM
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in karmagen, it's generally much better to spread around your spending anyways. just because 1/2 of your points *can* go into attributes, doesn't mean half your points *should* go to attributes.
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Glyph
post Jan 19 2013, 08:01 AM
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With the Attribute + skill dice pool mechanic, investing in Attributes is generally a good idea. The opportunity costs of doing so can vary depending on how reliant your concept is on other things such as skills and contacts.

Metatypes can potentially spend more on Attributes, but keep in mind that karma costs for Attributes go up exponentially. In build points, a human buying an Attribute to 5, an elf buying Charisma to 7, or a troll buying Strength to 9 all cost the same - 40 build points. In karmagen, they would spend 70 karma, 110 karma, and 150 karma respectively.
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Elfenlied
post Jan 19 2013, 10:23 AM
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Humans are a bit disadvantaged in comparison to metas, since the only free attribute bonus they get is Edge, whereas Orks e.g. start with Body 4 and Strength 3. The silver lining of playing an 8 Edge human is prohibitively expensive in Karmagen.
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 19 2013, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jan 19 2013, 04:23 AM) *
Humans are a bit disadvantaged in comparison to metas [...]


I still call BS on this idea. Humans are by far the BEST metatype.
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Lionhearted
post Jan 19 2013, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 19 2013, 07:51 PM) *
I still call BS on this idea. Humans are by far the BEST metatype.

Humanis scumbag...
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 19 2013, 07:05 PM
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It's the best because it doesn't cost points to be one. (To all the "optimizers": No matter how much you tell people that someone is 'paying' to be one, it still doesn't make it true.)
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Elfenlied
post Jan 19 2013, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 19 2013, 07:51 PM) *
I still call BS on this idea. Humans are by far the BEST metatype.


Could you elaborate on that?
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 19 2013, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jan 19 2013, 01:33 PM) *
Could you elaborate on that?


You skipped a post.
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Udoshi
post Jan 19 2013, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 19 2013, 12:05 PM) *
It's the best because it doesn't cost points to be one. (To all the "optimizers": No matter how much you tell people that someone is 'paying' to be one, it still doesn't make it true.)


Opportunity Cost is a thing, yo.

But there's also zero-cost/unstatted/fluff disadvantages to other metatypes to consider, like Dwarf and Troll Tax, and people being racist.
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Tanegar
post Jan 19 2013, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 19 2013, 04:05 PM) *
Opportunity Cost is a thing, yo.

I think "opportunity cost" was made up by economists to rationalize the profligate exploitation of the natural world, but this isn't the forum for that discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Halinn
post Jan 20 2013, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 19 2013, 08:05 PM) *
It's the best because it doesn't cost points to be one. (To all the "optimizers": No matter how much you tell people that someone is 'paying' to be one, it still doesn't make it true.)

Suppose for a character that you decide in advance that you want 3 Body and 3 Strength (to fit the Human average). This can either be done at the cost of 40 bp (that also counts against attribute limit) as a Human, or at 20 bp by being an Ork (and 10 bp extra to also get the extra edge that humans do). This even affords one more point of Body than what you originally wanted. Granted, if you were aiming for 5+ Charisma or Willpower, or 6+ Edge, Ork is probably not your best option, but point for point, there are situations where Orks are simply better.
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 20 2013, 01:25 AM
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QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 19 2013, 06:28 PM) *
Suppose for a character that you decide in advance that you want 3 Body and 3 Strength (to fit the Human average). This can either be done at the cost of 40 bp (that also counts against attribute limit) as a Human, or at 20 bp by being an Ork (and 10 bp extra to also get the extra edge that humans do). This even affords one more point of Body than what you originally wanted. Granted, if you were aiming for 5+ Charisma or Willpower, or 6+ Edge, Ork is probably not your best option, but point for point, there are situations where Orks are simply better.


The thing is, when talking 'average' you have to take the metatype's bonuses into account, and thus to be average for that type, it will cost the same amount.
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Halinn
post Jan 20 2013, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 20 2013, 02:25 AM) *
The thing is, when talking 'average' you have to take the metatype's bonuses into account, and thus to be average for that type, it will cost the same amount.

Only if you decide that for flavor purposes, you have to be that far above human standards. Even a weak ork (5 Body, 4 Strength, 2 Edge) is just 50 bp, compared to the 70 that a human spends on that. While you can argue that you wouldn't want the Strength, there aren't a whole lot of concepts that don't want that Body for the extra armor.
Perhaps you'll have to do a little background justifying why you're physically on the weak side of ork-kind, but (at least, without NQs) it can't be argued that you're actually scrawny and sickly, which a human with 2/2 Bod/Str would likely be.
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 20 2013, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 19 2013, 09:05 PM) *
... it can't be argued that you're actually scrawny and sickly, which a human with 2/2 Bod/Str would likely be.


Compared to normal orks you probably would be.
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Halinn
post Jan 20 2013, 03:20 AM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 20 2013, 04:08 AM) *
Compared to normal orks you probably would be.

Yeah, but I don't compare to normal orks, I compare to the world at large. Almost no matter what, I'll be weaker than the average troll, and stronger than the average dwarf, elf and human.
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 20 2013, 03:47 AM
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QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 19 2013, 09:20 PM) *
Yeah, but I don't compare to normal orks, I compare to the world at large. Almost no matter what, I'll be weaker than the average troll, and stronger than the average dwarf, elf and human.


Whereas, as I said, it's best to compare to the nominal versions of one's own metatype, IMO. That way, you can't be at all accused of the 'munchkin' thing. My motto: MSMAIC (Make Sure My A** Is Covered).
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Glyph
post Jan 20 2013, 07:13 AM
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That's holding yourself to a higher standard than the archetypes. Looking at the only two ork/troll non-muscle archetypes, the hacker and the street shaman, they both have the equivalent of Body: 1 and Strength: 1 for a human.
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Tanegar
post Jan 20 2013, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 20 2013, 02:13 AM) *
That's holding yourself to a higher standard than the archetypes. Looking at the only two ork/troll non-muscle archetypes, the hacker and the street shaman, they both have the equivalent of Body: 1 and Strength: 1 for a human.

Considering the low standard set by the archetypes, I'm going to go out on a limb and say most of us here hold ourselves to a higher standard than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Halinn
post Jan 20 2013, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 20 2013, 08:13 AM) *
That's holding yourself to a higher standard than the archetypes. Looking at the only two ork/troll non-muscle archetypes, the hacker and the street shaman, they both have the equivalent of Body: 1 and Strength: 1 for a human.

Also, every single archetype has at least one stat that's equivalent to a 2 and all three dwarves have the equivalent of Strength 1.
The archetypes might be poor examples of optimizing a character, but looking at them in general, they're indicative of the world.
Thus, I do not believe it should be seen as munchkin-y to have stats that are at 2-equivalent (making way for the body 5 strength 4 ork).
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 20 2013, 05:55 PM
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Funny how when it suits their purposes, people on these forums (and the other one) will tout the table showing meanings for attribute values and the one for skill values all day long, but as soon as it disproves their opinion, they turn right around and find something else to use.
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Halinn
post Jan 20 2013, 06:21 PM
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I wasn't even aware that attribute meanings had a table until you mentioned it (SR4A p. 67, for anyone else). That table only shows what attribute numbers correlate to for humans, by the way.

I don't prescribe to the notion that descriptive words for how good attribute/skill numbers are, have anything to do with the actual game. I don't think that players should hold back their skills because they can't be expert in that much and similar notions. I think that such descriptive words should only be for quick designs of NPCs, really. Player characters should be treated as special, and allowed to be deviate from the average in whatever fashion suits them.
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All4BigGuns
post Jan 20 2013, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 20 2013, 12:21 PM) *
I wasn't even aware that attribute meanings had a table until you mentioned it (SR4A p. 67, for anyone else). That table only shows what attribute numbers correlate to for humans, by the way.


Easy way to figure 'average' for the others: Add two to their minimum since that would come to being a three attribute (which is average) before adding their "racial bonus".
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Halinn
post Jan 20 2013, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 20 2013, 07:25 PM) *
Easy way to figure 'average' for the others: Add two to their minimum since that would come to being a three attribute (which is average) before adding their "racial bonus".

Wow! Genius! I certainly never thought of that!

Welcome to the world of AverageRun, where every runner is completely average.
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