Quick Question about Multiple Vision Ennhancers Options

[Sage2000]

Good evening.

I was wondering about the multiple possible layers for vision ennhancers, and how they would interact.

In terms of RAW, can a character stack, say:

- Natural elf vision (low-light);
- Contact lenses with enhanced vision (bonus to perception);
- Googles or helmet with a bunch more, like thermographic, magnification, etc.

My main concern is that all that stuff thats eletronic/digital would not work well in layers. The googles for example would not let the ambient light pass to the users eyes so the elvish eyes could function.

Besides that seems that the game designers would like us to use one of them at a time, thus the limits would make sense.

A second question would be: could the vision "modes" be functioning at the same time? Say thermo + ultrasound ? Seems a little imbalancing...not forcing us to make choices.

I would like to hear from you fellows, in terms of RAW, not house rules (I will create mine if needed).

[Teulisch]

i suspect common sense would be the best way to resolve things. the heavier types of gear (such as some helmets with optics built in) would go so far as to block natural sight, simply providing a screen that displays what the sensor can see. contacts should stack with everything.

thermographic will have problems with layers in front of the eyes- if your glasses or goggles are emitting heat (ie warmer than ambient temperature), then they will 'glow' which could be distracting. looking at someone through warm glasses would tint everything.

for stacking, your best bet is to put the image link as close to the eye as you can, and move the various sensors to the outer point of your gear.

for ultrasound, i imagine it like a wire-frame display. there was such an option in one of the old battletech video game, and i found it the most useful for aiming at targets. if you overlay that frame with other vision modes, it would highlight the lines of things i suspect. for best results you will want an integrated package. if its stacked (not integrated), then you get some clutter in your field of view which can make it harder to notice details.

[Lantzer]

RAW: Doesn't say anything, as far as I know. It has its limits.

House rules: Teulisch seems to make sense. I'd either go with only one layer, or stack them as he does.

[Sage2000]

i suspect common sense would be the best way to resolve things. the heavier types of gear (such as some helmets with optics built in) would go so far as to block natural sight, simply providing a screen that displays what the sensor can see. contacts should stack with everything.

thermographic will have problems with layers in front of the eyes- if your glasses or goggles are emitting heat (ie warmer than ambient temperature), then they will 'glow' which could be distracting. looking at someone through warm glasses would tint everything.

for stacking, your best bet is to put the image link as close to the eye as you can, and move the various sensors to the outer point of your gear.

for ultrasound, i imagine it like a wire-frame display. there was such an option in one of the old battletech video game, and i found it the most useful for aiming at targets. if you overlay that frame with other vision modes, it would highlight the lines of things i suspect. for best results you will want an integrated package. if its stacked (not integrated), then you get some clutter in your field of view which can make it harder to notice details.

So you guys are underestanding my doubts.... I am glad to see that I am not the only one. I am surpriseI haven't found this discussion on the search engine.

I am unconfortable with the idea of stacking devices without integration between them. For example I would be OK with the idea of multilenses and sensors clustered on a helmet or googles, but sending one single image to the user.

Like these:
Googles1
Googles2
I could not resist hehehe
Night vision
Really cool one, remminds me of LaForge VISOR, but its real

The way I underestand it, today or in the near future, those devices can concentrate a ton of information and feed the user with one, unique, image feed.

I Believe would made no sense to have -for example - cyber-eyes with ultrasound and put glasses in front of it, or even contact lenses, since the rules specifically point that a glass window would block ultrasound vision (makes sense, lights pass almost freely, but vibrations/sound would not).

And on top of that I have the feeling that the "ratings" (limits) of the gear we can aquire exists precisely so we can't get everything, we have to choose. Of course, the aftermentioned elf with low-light would not be forbidden to use glasses with thermo+low-light, but he would not be using his natural ability.

RAW: Doesn't say anything, as far as I know. It has its limits.

House rules: Teulisch seems to make sense. I'd either go with only one layer, or stack them as he does.

Thank you.

I am still puzzled by my second question: can we have multiple enhancements "on" at the same time?

[DMiller]

The way I’ve always thought of vision enhancements is they all send information to the display link of choice (wherever it is physically located) and the user concentrates on that link. Things I would allow as a GM (using your example in the OP).

The helmet or goggles sets itself to “clear” and allows the thermographic and ultra-sound to display as PIP (picture in picture), so the user is looking through a clear visor with two smaller windows displaying thermo and ultra-sound.

The contacts are mostly clear and wirelessly connect to the helmet to allow the vision enhancement to highlight things on the helmet display. The natural low-light shouldn’t be hindered by all of this as everything is set to “clear”; or you could use low-light on the helmet and forego the natural low-light vision.

This set up allows all the normal vision modifications to work. I would have perception tests take a -2 modifier for being distracted, three or more windows displaying data you need can be distracting.

-D

[Dolanar]

Again the RAW is silent on that topic. Things that make sense to be active at the same time, I'd say sure, others that logically could not work simultaneously turned on individually.

Eg: I imagine Ultrasound not changing the visuals at all, but more or less, periodic blips showing up at it hits things showing where they are so it would not hinder most other forms of vision.

[Sage2000]

Again the RAW is silent on that topic. Things that make sense to be active at the same time, I'd say sure, others that logically could not work simultaneously turned on individually.

Eg: I imagine Ultrasound not changing the visuals at all, but more or less, periodic blips showing up at it hits things showing where they are so it would not hinder most other forms of vision.

I see your point.

The thing is, actually, thats not how ultra-sound works by RAW (and common sense). You can perfectly act and even fight based on its information alone. Its described as a less detailed, colorless, image.

[Shaidar]

My interpretation on the integration-stacking interaction:

Integrate similar systems on a single device:

Contacts[3]/CyberEyes[16]:
Imagelink
Smartgunlink
Flare Compensation

Goggles[6]:
Low-Light
Thermographic
Ultrasound[2]
Magnification

And use Vision Enhancement rating as the number of vision systems that can be integrated/on simultaneously.

[Sage2000]

My interpretation on the integration-stacking interaction:

Integrate similar systems on a single device:

Contacts[3]/CyberEyes[16]:
Imagelink
Smartgunlink
Flare Compensation

Goggles[6]:
Low-Light
Thermographic
Ultrasound[2]
Magnification

And use Vision Enhancement rating as the number of vision systems that can be integrated/on simultaneously.

You actually gave a few interesting suggestions.

The problem is: if you put a google and contact lenses, both digital devices, in front of your augmented vision, how would it work?

Lets think for a momment: in your example, if your googles (an eletronic device, not transparent) suddenly got out of power, and was shut down, you would just see an black screem in front of you (like a TV off). That shows that there would be no way your cyber eyes could be doing anything.

[Teulisch]

actually.... with an image link, your skinlinked PAN could probably show the image seen by the sensor of your choice, which does not need to be covering your eyes. having it on your face is advised however, as a view from elsewhere would be confusing (although putting the ultrasound somewhere other than your helmet may be a reasonable idea).

its all about how you utilize the available sensor information. contacts are low-profile, but quality goggles can provide vital protection from tear gas and similar irritants. glasses hold more stuff while looking normal. also, contacts could be used as a 'redundant' layer, in standby until needed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

actually.... with an image link, your skinlinked PAN could probably show the image seen by the sensor of your choice, which does not need to be covering your eyes. having it on your face is advised however, as a view from elsewhere would be confusing (although putting the ultrasound somewhere other than your helmet may be a reasonable idea).

its all about how you utilize the available sensor information. contacts are low-profile, but quality goggles can provide vital protection from tear gas and similar irritants. glasses hold more stuff while looking normal. also, contacts could be used as a 'redundant' layer, in standby until needed.

Just a Note: Gogles may protect your eyes from Tear Gas (CS/CN) but that is not really going to help you all that much. If you breath that stuff, you are worse off than if you just had it come in contact with your skin/eyes (which also sucks). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Shaidar]

I've been re-reading some things, as far a cyberware is concerned Ultrasound cannot be installed into the eye itself. All other types of vision can be installed into the same Rating 3 Cybereye by RAW for 0.4 Essence for standard grade 'Ware. Toss an Ultrasound Sensor Headware for 0.3 Essence.

Trying to get the same capability without the Essence cost for a Mage is the rub.